Disclaimer: I am going to try and do my best to tell this story with out being biased, in my favor, as the story reflects negatively upon me in the eyes of others and being human I would want to tell 'my side' to reflect positively upon myself. I will try to avoid that bias, as I always try to be objective, but sometimes I'm sure I'm not. tl;dr.

I play in a home game (not my house) that runs once every other Saturday. I am 24, and the rest of the players in the game, besides my gf, are all 40+ and have all been friends for years, we are in Kentucky, and as much as I am not a 'country' person, plenty of the players in this game are. We recently joined this game (~6 months ago, it has been running for 4 years) as my gf's father knew some of these people and she wanted to play with him, otherwise I would not make the drive or want to play for these stakes. We play only tournaments, they are a part of a series, so each time you pay a small amount to go to the last tournament and the buy in is $25(for that toruny only)+5(for high hand)+5(for the series) so $35 each time, I buy myself and my gf in every time so I am always in for $70. There are usually around 16-20 players each game.

All except two of the players in the game are your standard 1/2 old person at a casino poker player. None of whom have ever heard of 2+2. They all play super passive pre flop and, for the most part, fit or fold post flop. The two exceptions, one of whom is the owner of the house, are only mediocre at best, e.g. only minimal comprehension of ICM and they still like to limp a lot pre and play poorly post.

I am, by far, the best player in the game (I know I said I did not want to have any bias in this post, but its the truth). I keep live results in a spreadsheet, the blacked out line is from a trip to a casino and not part of the discussion and at times we would play for 'double points' and the buy in would go up by a small amount: It is sorted by Date, Buy in, Profit, Net.

I also understand that continually having good results is likely off putting to the other players. And I wonder if I habitually lost in this game if they would think the same way? And why that would matter?

I have played thousands of sngs online, mainly at mid stakes, and am also decent at 6max cash and other games that no one likes or plays much (stud8, badugi, plo8, ect). I have played professionally, online, for the last 2 years or so, up till black friday. I, mostly, do not talk at the table unless I am trying to work though a hand out-loud or asking someone for a count or discussing outs/% for other players, ect.

Enough background, on to the point. Today, before going to the game as it ran tonight, I got a call from the person who runs the game saying that he was considering not allowing me back at the game because I had pissed people off so much and that everyone there thinks I am an A-hole. He said that I have been able to make some money in the game and he could not understand why I would act so poorly and 'try to get the [fish] mad at you to where they don't want you around'. And that I get so out of line that I, by 'making fun of' other players. As a note I never personally insult anyone at the table, he may be referencing something to how I, either during or after the hand, comment on how a player played a particular hand. E.g. 'why would you bet so big' or 'what are you trying to rep here'. Nothing like 'omg you suck so bad, donk' or 'I would have never played that hand in that fashion'. Nothing directly insulting imo. Although I really appreciated him calling me, as I'm used to people my age that would just wright something demeaning on facebook, or continue to talk behind my back.

He stated that this opinion stems from me saying things at the table, and for 'trying to be the table sheriff', for instance; I played a hand against a 40yo woman, a couple of week ago, in which the final board read 4K728r, I held 56o and she held KJo on the river I made a large bet after getting there and she called. I flipped over my hand and stated 'I had the joint' which to me means the nuts. Everyone there looked at me as if I had no clue what I was talking about and started laughing, at me, and thought that I was talking about actual marijuana. As the woman slowly was going to turn over her hand/ throw it in the direction of the muck, I had already started to drag the pot. Which in retrospect was out of line, but not so much imo.

Another example would be from a deal making process that happened a few weeks ago. I, and three others were itm and were considering a deal. I am in for $70, something the other players do not know, or were not actively thinking of. The proposed deal would have chopped the money by exact percent of chips you had vs. the total amount of chips, no paying out 4th to everyone first. This deal would have left me a loser after taking it, so knowing I was going to make a deal where I lost money I suggested a ICM chop where players get the most recent place paid out to them, 4th in this instance, and then chop based on % of chips vs. the total. The person who runs the game said, 'well we always chop based on percentage' I went on to say 'I'll chop but we have to get paid 4th place money first', which would have left me up $1 for the night. Under his breath, but loud enough for everyone to hear (if that makes sense), he said 'well its three vs. one so if you all agree then that's how the deal will work'. I snap said 'ummm, no. Let's just keep playing.' The others, one of which was his wife, were passive enough to kinda just go along with me. Its likely my tone of voice here was somewhat angry after the lol deal started being discussed.

Lastly, just two weeks ago at the final tourny for that series, I was playing at the same table as the other semi-competent player and he was on my immediate left. He was able to adjust his game to play back at me as I was raising the CO and button often. His stack got to the point where it was the right size to shove through an open of mine, and he did this 3 or 4 times when I would open around the button/CO/HJ. He eventually got moved to another table, and when we got down to the last 9 players he was seated directly on my right, I was able to three bet him often and move him off pots in BvB situations. Then this hand came up. I was in the BB with K5o and it folded around to the SB semi-competent player and he limped in I checked. The flop was K66r he checks I check. Turn was an off suit 8 he bets about half the pot I just flat. The river is an off suit 2 and he checks, I think about the hand for a while and decided that I should bet small to attempt to induce a bluff raise, I bet small he raises. I say 'wow, I bet that size to get you to raise me, I'm so proud of this hand' I call he mucks. I go on to say 'You've been playing back at me all day, that's why I played that had so weird'. He asks me, if I thought he was bluffing, why not re-raise the river, I told him there was no value in rasing as no worse hand can call a raise.

This hand, and the talk that came after, lead the guy who runs the game's wife to tell him that she thought I was way out of line, and she never wanted me back in his house (they don't live together) again because I insulted her friend, the SB, so much.

Outside of these examples, the only 'bad' thing I do is ask, in a serious tone of voice, how many chips they have or what do you think I have or other, what I consider, basic table talk. I never ask for certain cards to come out or ask the dealer to win a race. I also never celebrate after winning a hand or sucking out. I will congratulate or bemoan myself, aloud, after I believe I have played a hand well or poorly. Which I understand could come off as egotistical.

I have asked a couple of people, that play in the same game, that I have become friends with if they think I do anything crazy. They have told me they not only don't think so, and they would tell me if I did. However they are my friends and I would expect them to tell me that, so I don't know if I can take it at face value, even though I'm inclined to believe them.

All in all, assuming you saw this action, and it actually happened is the manner that I have described it, (I tried to be really honest and as close to accurate as possible) do you think I am way out of line? Would you consider banning me from your game if these things happened? Do you think it simply could be a generation gap of ideas on how to act?

Cliffs:

• Go to a home game where there is a culture and age gap.
• Try to never insult other people or disrespect them or the house.
• Take a hard line during a deal, where I was getting shafted but others thought was totally fiar.
• Tell a player I effectively outplayed him, which leads to the wife of the home owner to hate me.
• Rake a pot where I have gin before other player mucks, even though they are clearly going to muck.
• Get told I might not get to go back, more a loss for my gf, if I don't stfu and act right.
• Friends at the game don't think I do anything out of line, but their my friends what are they supposed to say?
• Do I get out of line iyo?

Doubt you are out of line.

But if you want to continue to play, you should try and be less of a competent player and more of a donk, if that makes sense.

Well, seems like you know exactly what you are doing wrong. A lot of the things you are doing make you appear to be an ***hole. In general, don't discuss poker strategy at the table, even if you are mumbling out loud to yourself. Don't use poker lingo, because casual players find those terms confusing and elitist.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong, but obviously there are at least 2 people you've offended. Since it's a home game, you play by the accepted norms, or don't play.

You don't like the game, and only play for your GF. Either get in line to keep the GF happy and continue to play, or quit going. Again, I don't think you sound outrageously out of line for my home games, or a casino, but that's not where you are.

It sounds like a couple of spoiled children (probably the ones who used to win) are upset that you are winning what they used to win. It may not matter how you behave, they will always be crying b!tches.

Seems like it would be easy to change a couple of things (talk more about non-poker stuff, use local lingo (not advanced poker terms and 2+2 topics), go with the flow on chops. It's all +EV and you might even have fun.

I think it is how you act rather than play. You ever realize that some people could lose tons of money to one player, but to another player can't stand to lose $20? Obviously something about you makes it hard for people to lose money to you. I think that some of your talking makes other people think you are rubbing it in your face. This in turn makes it so they don't want to be around you.

Not saying you are out of line but you need to learn the meta-game lol!

If you made the wife angry, your in trouble.

That one pot when asked why you didn't raise, this should have been a response:

1st: You probably shouldn't have said why you did things a certain way.

2nd: When asked why you didn't raise you should have said something like:

I wasn't 100% sure you were bluffing. I was afraid I was wrong or something to give uncertainty. Rather than confidence, that can be viewed as rubbing it in. (Like you were stupid and I wanted to see your stupidity.) People think like this so you need to realize certain things.

3rd: Leave the fish alone. Your tapping on the glass. Not out of line but when the fish are uncomfortable to lose to you, that is -EV.

This has nothing to do with you winning. The chop thing was something that probably pissed people off. You went for the +EV but actually it was -EV. Technically you were +EV because your gf should be independent of your results imo.

So you're playing in a low-stakes game that looks to be even parts cards and socializing. And you do this -

Do you understand that by questioning how they played a hand you are implying that they played it poorly? No one is there to study up and get better. They just want to play cards.

You may think it's "not so much". What you think doesn't matter. It wouldn't have mattered if you said "I have the best hand" in your most polite voice. Dragging the pot before she had a chance to fold is rude.

First, you're not in for $70. You're in for $35.

Second, if this is any indication of how you act all the time (and the rest of your post suggests it is) I wouldn't invited you back to this game either. Not because anything in your post is wrong in general. But because it is wrong for this particular game as evidenced by -

You think you're discussing the hand. He thinks you're telling him he doesn't know how to play and finds it insulting. And frankly, given what you've described about this game, I agree with him.

It has nothing to do with a generation gap (I'm 50 fwiw). It has to do with you not recognizing the environment that this game is taking place in.

I have played in home games where it was serious, all business, cut-throat poker. And then there are games where the main point is to drink a glass of wine, have a beer or two, and talk about what's been going on in your life for the past month - the cards are almost incidental. The stakes are similar and players overlap in each but the night is totally different because everyone understands the point of the evening. Most home games fall somewhere between the two. The trick is figuring out where.

Just remember, that while you think you're somewhere playing cards, in reality you're visiting someone's home.

Oh, and your results don't matter in this. A "good" poker player will have people happily handing over all their money every week and then say thank you for the privilege of losing it.

Think about it.

It is really simple---these folks are all friends, play a social home game, and you are running them over and telling them how badly they play. It is douchey behavior at best and ruins the vibe of the game. When you beat someone, shut your mouth unless somebody asks. No one likes to lose and be told they played badly, etc.

Talk about fishing, your GF's family, or anything else besides poker.

^^^ good reply (didace). +1 on all accounts.

some additional thoughts:

when you are the best player at any home game, it is key to avoid letting people know this. you need to act and say things that everyone else acts and says. blend in. never work out a hand out loud, talk about EV, percentages, etc. it sounds like everyone there is just out to have some fun; you need to give off this perception also.

i would call the host, apologize for being a douche (even though i know i wasn't really being douchey), and tell him it wont happen again. it sounds like this is a pretty easy game, and it looks like you are turning a decent profit even when you figure in GF's buy ins. then, i would do whatever i needed to do to keep everyone happy and contributing to my BR.

and buying in the GF shouldn't count against your profit/loss. look at it as the rake :/

gl

Ok, so you mainly sit there, at a social game, silent. But when you do finally join in the conversation, it's stuff like this:

And you don't get why they don't want you back? That you suggest it's because you're winning and not because they just don't like you makes me think you do act as douchey as the other posters say.

LOL. You need to adapt to the atmosphere of the home game. I play in more than one home game or group of players, and each have their own customs and habits. In one game, the players make string bets, say "I call and raise," regularly engage in kill raising (raising less than the minimum), go "light," will routinely violate the SOSA rule, and in one particular game it is common for players to advise each other how to play the hand (i.e., you should play for the low, etc . . . .) These guys would think you were from Mars and a douche if you told them that their game violated certain "poker rules." Whenever I play in a new game, I always lay low until I get a feel for the game and find a way to fit into the game. You weren't able to do that.

Pretty much what I was going to say.

Sometimes perception becomes the only reality that matters. DB is in the eye of the beholder.

Home Games are about Social interaction. If you're no longer socially welcome in a Home Game then you need to either learn to adapt to the local social norms or find another game.

I started off with black marks against you, before I even read your post.

So, perhaps my addytude is a bit off, but nonetheless....

Ignoring all of the BBV crap in your post (why would we need "proof" that you're the "best" player? Why do you feel the need to tell us, in detail? Are you trying to impress us, here, as well as evidently wanting to in that home game?)

... your attitude seems all wrong. Granted, you're spewing this on 2+2, rather than in "public", but given the reactions that you're evidently getting from the home group... I suspect that presumed contempt is coming through and you don't realize it.


Stop thinking about this as a live version of online poker. You might need some work on your sociability skills. Even if their opinions of you are 'incorrect', they may not be wrong.

Having the host approach you is a HUGE warning flag, both for your attendence at the game and your image outside of it. Maybe you don't care what your gf's father thinks of you, but I'll bet she does.



I suspect that it's not your winning or losing that has much to do with their baseline attitudes towards you. The winning is just salt in the wounds.
Losing to them on purpose would just result in "well, Go Get It is an *******, but he loses money, so we'll try to put up with him."





If you would have ended up in 4th, would you have made or lost money, based on your so-called double investment?

And why was the $1 "profit" over that $70 so important to you? Perhaps your ego is getting in the way a bit?



Now, you have to decide what it is you're trying to get out of this particular game. However, given some of the reactions in your thread so far, including mine, you might want to take a long, hard look at how you're coming across in that home game.

I can't say I remember reading that many of your posts, certainly not enough to have any impression of you.... and I have a negative interpretation of your comments, based on this OP. That might say something. Try to step outside your own mentality and interpret your actions from THEIR perspectives (alien as they may be, to you)


GL, whatever way you decide to go. But, remember that many home games are home events FIRST and profit-making activities SECOND.

On 65 hand, sheepishly roll over your hand and say, "eh, I got lucky on you."

There's clearly something about your demeanor that people find upsetting. Displaying your superior poker knowledge is probably a big part of it.

every single point in the story makes you sound like an overly-serious drag. Liven up. A professional poker player is a professional entertainer.

Apologize to host, volunteer to stock the bar at the next game. Don't be such a wet blanket. You should talk at the table, just not about poker. If you're not making someone laugh once in a while, you're not a good poker player yet.

you didn't do anything really out of line, that said, in home games you need to adjust the way you act/talk from casino/online games. you should be trying to 'fit in' more and kind of go with the flow of how everyone else treats the game. none of them are analyzing their own or others' play out loud and they're obviously not thinking on your level so anytime you talk about a hand out loud you're gonna be separating yourself from them which can certainly come off in the wrong way. in a home game, you really need to cater to the fish, they're there to have fun and anything you do to make them uncomfortable is hurting the game and hurting your chances of getting invited back. one of, if not the most important things in home games is staying in the game (getting invited back).