I've been hosting a rake free cash game that's just for myself and a few buddies, we usually only play 10/20c with about 5-7 of us.

Anyways I've been having problems lately with people excessively bending the cards and leaving the games early (Show up and play for about 2 hours then leave as soon as your up).... Now the only real problem I have is that the table, chips, and cards were all paid for out of my pocket and the game is hosted for free with absolutely no rake. I put about $900 dollars worth of my own money for people to use, in which I have no problem with. However, people showing up and leaving when they please while bending cards is starting to piss me off... The game is -EV no matter what, even If I do end up making $20-40 profit it's still nothing compared to amount I've put into it and still have to replace.. I don't really want to take rake, but what can I do when I'm just losing money even when I do win.

Below are a few pics of the cards... I'll leave that open for comments as well. Coincidence or not?



These are aces ^




These are all deuces ^



These are just some of the cards T+ ^

Don't rake. For many reasons. Besides, how much rake can you take for 2 hours at 10c/20c?

Tired of people leaving after a couple of hours? Talk to them and ask them to commit for a set time (say 4hrs). Don't mention the money. Explain that ALL the players expect to play for a certain period of time. I know there are some guys who really just have a couple hours to play, I really hope they aren't hit and running for $3.


Innocent explanation:
Cards to get worn. Paper cards get worn out faster. Invest in some decent plastic durable cards. There is a thread. I've found that amazon has copags on sale quite often.


Guilty explanation:
Watch for people bending the cards. Ask them to go easy on the cards, and before the cards get shuffled back in, hold that card to the side and 'fix' it by bending it back and seeing what card it actually is.


Tired of buying stuff. Ask your friends to contribute something material. Not necessarily cash, but that works too. ASK. They are your friends.


Invested $900.... consider that money spent and gone. Don't plan to get it back. You've got the chips etc.

Are those plastic or plastic-coated paper cards? If the latter, that's concern #1. You have a $900 setup with paper cards. Paper cards don't last. Buy real plastic cards. That would be EV+ over paper cards for a long-term game.

As to people leaving early, that's on you as the host. A good poker game isn't something that materializes because you bought a poker table and some chips. People generally leave early because (a) they're bored, (b) they're losing too much money for their comfort, or (c) they have a bad feeling about the game or feel sketched out. It's your job as the host to avoid making people feel these ways, and to make them want to stay. Serious poker-heads will often stick around just because there's a profitable game, but most recreational players are there for socializing and having fun. Give it to them.

It's also your job to recruit players who are good for the game. Some of your existing buddies may be swell fellows, but not much fun to play poker with. Some of them might even, say, bend your cards unreasonably and leave early as soon as they book a profit. Play in other games, branch out, and make friends with people who play and have more money to play with.

Finally, the way you're thinking about the cost of the setup is all wrong. Unless you were planning to run a for-profit cardroom, you sunk $900 on a hobby. It's like if you were to buy a dartboard or pool table, so that you have a fun activity you can invite people to do. You don't buy it with the expectation of hustling the money back.

With poker, you might happen to make money in the activity, and it may even pay for itself over the years, but it's a luxury that you're buying to indulge your hobby. Try to enjoy it. Don't stress out over not making enough money to pay for it ASAP.

How long has your group been playing ? How often do you play? You may be still in the initial stages of organizing a regular crew IDK. I have been at it a long time and I still have folks who buy in short and those who come late. Some who leave abruptly when they lose a buy in. I have had a few instances of somebody bending my plastic Copags and Modianos. So these problems are not unique to you at all. Just goes with the territory I am afraid.

Over the years we have built a steady core of reliable players that offset some (actually most) of the negative antics of some of our other players. Folks donate a lot now without being required to. We do not rake or seat charge. My investment in my hobby is just that, an investment that I had to make if I wanted a regular game that I trusted.

I guess I am advising you that it takes some time ( and some good luck) to get a good home game going and it certainly will take a lot of maintenance on your part to keep it running well. Ask for help , but don't demand it, or become dependent on it from other folks in your game. Be in charge but don't ignore other views. Good luck!

Thanks, like I said above I don't really care about the money that much. I just find it kind of disrespectful when players show up and wreck your stuff then leave as soon as there up... The $900 is nothing for a hobby, I've blown way more on stuff I've never used, its just the disrespect and ruining the game for other people that bothers me the most.

As for boredom, I know that's not the problem, they're always the ones asking me to host the games and asking when the next one is. It's just one player always cashes out when he's up in money, if he is losing or even money he will be there and play for 6-7 hours, and I usually have to tell people when the game is done. But every time he gets up $40-60 he instantly cashes out and goes home like he's scared to lose money which in turn puts less money and people in the game. And it's always just the one person when he is up.

The cards in the picture are said to be 100% plastic, however I have noticed that they tend to bend a lot more then my KEM & Copag cards. It is only one player who bends the cards and he has been warned but it still happens.

P.S The blinds are 10/20c but it plays more like a 25/50, the first pre-flop raise is never less then a dollar and most of the players don't use strategy and over-bet everything. Almost every pot gets to $10-15 lol....

I think I'll use the 4-hour minimum rule for players who are winning, unless they have a legitimate excuse.

Do you think it would be alright to ask the players to have to buy 1 deck for each game just to replace the old ones? Like stated above I don't want to rake, just because there is no outsiders and it's all friends, and it's illegal.

We've been playing for about 18 months now, the investment isn't the problem. It's just frustrating when you put your time and money into something and people disrespect it. I shouldn't have really mentioned the money part, it doesn't matter. I just wanna know what I should do to get rid of the card bending and leaving early... With that being said I think I got some solutions.

I think a rule is going to be counter productive. What happens when it's been like 2 hours and player X wants to leave?

"I'm sorry X, it's only been 2 hours, you have to play 2 more or lose money before you can leave."

Yeah, sorry, F that. If I saw a host say something like that, I'd be done with the game, and I'm one of they guys who sticks around until the game breaks.

You'd be better off pulling the guys who leave early aside and explain that it's difficult for you, the host, to get everything coordinated for the games and you'd appreciate it if they stayed longer regardless of win/loss, and if the games continue to break early you're not sure if you'll keep hosting them for everyone because it's not worth your effort to put everything together for 2 hours of poker.

Also, try expanding. If you can get 2 tables of 5-6 people each, when the hit and runners leave, you can condense to 1 table of 10

Another idea: You could also say that people who stay the latest have 1st dibs on a seat next time. People who stay less than X hours get dibs last. If there aren't enough seats, then they have to wait

Basically, I'd be looking for a way to motivate them to stay but they are free to do what they want rather then trying to force them to stay

Insist that he leave his cards on the table. Explain to him that players are supposed to leave their cards on the table. Explain to him that he crimps the cards when he holds them. Your want to get the card bender to cooperate with you. Getting the card bender to understand he's marking and ruining the cards is the first step in getting the card bender to want to feel cooperative.

You want his cooperation rather than his submission to a boss.

Yes, it's all right... but there may be a better way. Why not initiate a discussion. Learn what your people want.

Buzz

^ He's very aware of what he's doing but just does it naturally, we've probably went through at least 7 decks just from him..

As for the 3-4 hour rule, I did ask the remaining players to discuss and vote on what they think should be done about the player who always leaves early.. All of them said that it should me made to play a mandatory of 3-4, and if he or she decided to leave early they have to pay a fee of $2 to each player remaining at the table.

As for kicking players out, I live in a town of less then 1000 players and there isn't a poker game within 45 mins from us. It's hard for us to find new people who aren't starting stuff or just generally weird lol.

He can't bend the cards if he keeps them face down on the table (like he's supposed to do).

Er... well... I suppose he could, but then it would be more or less deliberate.

Buzz

It's actually worse when he leaves them on the table, he bends them back to the point the corners pretty much touch.... I've tried a few different brands and they all seem to get bent noticeably. Might just start buying cheaper cards and have a new deck each game or something..

Bicycle prestige are decent plastic cards and you can find them on sale at drug stores. I think we got 20 decks at a walgreens. Try them.

Instead of insisting people stay x amount of hours, just ask them to tell you 30 mins bf they are leaving. Many times they will end up staying bc they won a pot or whatever and you can gauge better when you are going to lose a player. Works at our cash game. Our host lists it in the email w the other details. He collects a buck a buy in as well to defray costs. No one minds.

Hope it helps! It's hard to get a good game going, the advice above is great, especially about meeting and inviting new players! Good luck!

Have you thought about moving somewhere with better poker?

I play in games where the host gets a couple of bucks at the start to pay for cards and each game has new cards. If that works for your crew - fine.

The games I host use plastic cards and I don't seem to have this problem. Looking at the pictures, I think those cards are coated paper. If you aren't paying ~$20 a set up or more, the cards aren't plastic. Plastic cards do wear out / get damaged. I buy several identical decks and eventually one deck becomes the donor deck to keep the other two healthy.

You are hosting in a small pool of players. I encourage you not to make leaving early too much of an issue. Every player is precious to the game. A steady regular who might leave early is better than an empty chair.

As for costs - - - We host poker because it is fun and we like to socialize with our friends. I can't imagine anyone hosting a Super Bowl party and thinking "I bought a $900 TV and laid out snacks & drinks and am not getting my costs covered". Can you imagine "raking" a world cup party? A buck per half, plus a buck for every goal? So no, don't rake your game.

I host about 40 games a year. My costs are really high, in part because I am a poker chip addict but also because we feed everyone a meal. Food & drink costs ~$50 - $100 a night. ( I wouldn't want to count up what all the chips have cost! ) People chip in a little, but I almost never cover costs from tips and don't expect to. The game is entertainment for me and the rest of the players. It isn't a profit seeking venture, it is social fun. Yes it does cost $3,000 / year and it is worth every cent.

In some ways it sounds like you aren't having fun. Get the card situation sorted out and get back to the felt. Have fun, win or lose.

If it isn't fun, don't do it -=- DrStrange

Yes ,every player is precious in a small town poker club so be as friendly with the "hit and run" guy as you can when you explain the problem and try to find a solution. You may not be able to resolve this one. He may have domestic issues or something else besides just being up, but having him in the game is better than losing him because your pool is small.

18 months of even semi regular meet ups is not "just starting up" a group , so it is clear you have some folks who want this to succeed too. If you want to expand your pool of players talk to the group about it and see if they would be willing to sponsor some new faces. Maybe you have done all this already.

Now the big problem. If you are using 100% plastics and one guy has ruined and marked that many decks, AND you know who it is, then you have lots more patience than I have. You must call him out right in front of all the others when he does it. You must explain the costs and the marking problem. You must demand that he stops this and if he argues and doesn't he must reimburse you or quit the game. Earlier I commented that I had some damage problems myself. I did NOT know who had done it, so I just made a blanket comment to our group about it and it has stopped. Since you have the guilty party you need to take care of it right now openly.

As to expenses, you seem to have the right mind set about it in your posts. I just look at expenses as part of the hobby costs, that good play/luckboxing can sometimes off seta little.

A good unraked homegame is not always easy to maintain. You seem to have a very good start. You must be doing a lot right. You likely may have to just eat the "hit and run" situation, but the overt card destroyer must be dealt with. Good luck.

Sounds pretty frustrating.

Is he just obtuse? (rhetorical)

Nobody has to bend his/her cards to lift and peek at them.

My experience with people bending cards has been with people who cup their cards in one hand (or both hands), get distracted by what someone else is doing during the play of a hand, and in their stress or excitement are not aware that they're squeezing and bending the cards. They don't do it on purpose, and they're contrite when they do it.

Insisting players, especially known card benders, keep their cards flat on the table has solved the card bending problem for me.

If there's too much other stuff going on for you to personally keep track of the card bender, why not assign someone else to watch him and remind him if need be? My guess is nobody in your game wants someone bending the cards.

Just my opinion.

Anyhow, good luck.

Buzz

For the cards, it sounds like reminding the guy isn't going to fix the problem. I don't like the idea of asking for money to cover the cards, instead, just ask the players to bring a deck or two to your next game. Not all of them will, but if even half does, your covered.

For leaving early, that's a hard one. I would explain your looking for guys wanting to stay the night, say until 11PM. If anyone wants to leave early, just ask them to announce it when they sit down. Of course if a player is down, they leave anytime them want.

Looking at the pictures, if these are really 100% plastic and the guy managed to bend them in such a way, then it's absolutely intentional and he's just outright marking cards i.e cheating.
I wouldn't tolerate such behavior in my game, and even if I agree with Bene when he says every player is precious, I don't really count cheaters as players...

You should have a serious talk about this with him and warn him more seriously.
If he can't stop, you should think about letting him outside of your game, but I guess it would feel awkward for the other players if they don't really understand your concerns...

Are they long-time friends with which you do things outside of poker together also or is that just a group of poker-friends that you see almost for poker nights only ?

I think those are paper cards, so the fact of them being bent doesn't necessarily mean it's deliberate.

However, the clue I find most unusual in that area is that so many aces were noticeably bent, while the deuces were not. That much of a buckle could easily make those high-rank cards visible from across the table, especially if players aren't using card protectors (and even that would only do so much).

OP, you seem to have noticed a pattern in which ranks are bent. Aces and 10+ cards seem to be bent with more frequency than low-rank cards, correct? In your photos, I can see that some of the cards are bent so that the front and back are both bent upward. Others have only one side or a corner bent. Is there any correlation between the type of bending and the card ranks?

I don't want to jump to the conclusion that the guy is a cheater, but it's worth exploring. If he's the type who bends the cards up multiple times per hand, that could explain why higher-rank cards are bent more. (Higher-ranked cards tend to get played further into the hand.) However, if there's a clear pattern—e.g., aces bent front-to-back, kings bent on opposite corners, queens bent with both corners on a short side, jacks with both corners on a long side—I'd be watching this guy closely.

Of course, it's basically impossible to rule cheating out. Even if there's no pattern, he could be bending high cards so that he can front-load with weak dealers (try to spot cards as they're dealt), or to facilitate some form of shady dealing. But I wouldn't get hung up on these possibilities unless there's specific information to indicate it.

These are the cards that are bent, unfortunately I bought 3 sets when they were still full price at $30. It says they're are 100% plastic and last longer then paper cards so I'm assuming they are all plastics and not paper covered... If I'm wrong someone tell me! Like I said we have used these cards for months without any bending problems... It's just the one guy who has destroyed at least $50 worth of cards.

Like I said, it's a group and all the people in it are either family and my best friends from school. It's not just a poker group.


http://www.straightpokersupplies.com...g-card-co.html

Bent cards ^

Your stakes are fairly low for cheating to be profitable, but it is possible, so you might be a little wary. Actually I think he is just mindlessly vandalizing the decks. No need to put up with that IMHO. Paper or Plastic , does not matter. A restrained but serious discussion of his actions likely will do the trick. Unless you have already tried that and got no results, then I would be less restrained .

ShowMeUrAce....

Totally agree on cheaters. Not sure about this guy. My precious players comment was mostly about the "hit and run" player OP was concerned about. OPs group is a little small.

I believe Bicycle makes another WSOP line of cards that are plastic-coated paper. That's what I thought you were using. These wouldn't be my personal choice, but they are legit plastic cards.

So yeah, this guy's badly warping cards that are very hard to warp in casual play. I'd run through the other possibilities (mostly moisture- and/or heat-related), but it seems pretty clear from your remarks that this is all coming from him.

My advice, in addition to checking for patterns in how certain ranks are bent, is to watch him carefully (but stealthily) next session. It seems a given that he will bend cards again; what you should be looking for is whether he's doing it absentmindedly all the time, or more methodically. I'd be worried about it if he's making a clear effort to bend certain cards, or to bend cards in a certain way. I'd also be concerned if he deals in an unusual way or seems to be paying too much attention to the cards as they're being pitched.

After a little observation, either way, ask him to stop, as discussed in the rest of the thread, and introduce a new, undamaged deck. A good time to do it would be on your deal. Have a good look at the deck and any individual bent cards. Drive the point home that his compulsive habit is destroying your cards.

I'm actually leaning against cheating because the guy flees the game as soon as he books a small profit. That's not consistent with someone who marks cards for cheating; he'd probably want to stick around and take advantage of his work. But it's not impossible for it to be cheating either. What he's doing is rather strange and could easily be low-hanging fruit for an amateur cheat. Could be something he started doing by accident, but then eventually realized it gives him a small advantage. He may not even think of it as cheating.

One way or the other, it's something you should watch for, just in case. If he is a cheat, getting him to stop bending cards is not a solution. It'd be like only putting out part of a fire.

This doesn't mean nothing, but it also doesn't mean no one could be cheating. It can happen in any group and at any stakes. The probability increases as the stakes go up and the group is less connected, but it's never zero.

Confused..... Is the hit and run guy and the card bender the same player? Guess it could be , but I read it as two different problem children.