Scenario: consistently winning player is playing for 3.5-4 hours a session. They show up and leave at just about the same time every session, whether they win or lose. They aren't winning big pots and immediately leaving (i.e. no hit and running). However, player is usually a solid, steady winner and most players typically play for longer than 3.5-4 hours at this game.

This is at an underground, raked game in NYC.

Is player out of line to rack up?

Not at all.

It may or may not be relevant: player has also been running very hot at this game over the past 2-3 months, winning in around 90% of sessions and had 2-3 unusually large wins in that time frame too.

Plenty of people just like to play poker for a few hours at a time. You know, like other hobbies.

To me the only time a player should feel obligated to play for a certain time would be in home game scenario where others have planned around a game and everyone shared the expectation that barring a valid excuse if you committed to play you were expected to play the entire session.

No.

Buzz

Thanks all for the feedback.

I am the player in question, and recently got pulled aside by the guy who runs this game and told that I was killing his game by crushing it and cashing out when I was. And that I was only welcome back if I played longer sessions.

The conversation really jarred me (I'm a pretty laid-back, friendly player and have never had any issue at any table before) and I just wanted to get an outside opinion. I would never want to cause friction or bring any problem to a good poker game. I do understand that I've been running hot there and that at some point a couple of the more alpha players might have begun to resent that. Then again, it's not my problem that they suck at poker.

I'm not ever going to play at this game again (life is too short to deal with stuff like this), but it's good to know I wasn't the one out of line in this case.

It's true that one player crushing a game like that isn't good for the longevity of the game. It may even spur suspicions of cheating.

Doesn't mean the host should confront a player like that and basically threaten to bar him for "winning too much." You did nothing wrong.

This is one of the underlying problems with underground games..

Really any player should be able to come and go as they please without fear of not generating enough rake and/or letting down the house and hurting the game.

I've played at a bunch of underground games where there is a minimum number of hours usually 2-3. 4 hours is excessive for a minimum and I don't blame you for not going back.

I have had situations at home games where I was pulled aside and told I needed to play more so they could generate enough rake to pay me out!!

To me the juicy action games and endless credit sheets extended don't make up for the -ev rake. I've found you can play the same players at the casino so might as well play them w $5 cap.

You have every right to play 3-4 hours. That is not a really short session in my opinion.

When people lose they will often find something to gripe about. In this case, it is that you're taking money off the table when they want to continue to play.

Basically they are telling you to be a bigger loser or don't come back. That's the attitude of a carnival "joint" , not a legit poker game. Find another , more player friendly , place to play poker.

If the host tells you to only come back if you're going to play longer, only go back if you're going to play longer. It's pretty out of line for him to tell you that, but he did, so gg.

The underground game I play in has a 3-hour minimum, though obviously if you bust out you can leave rather than rebuy and you can get a one-off excuse if you're generally not hitting and running. For instance, I once had to leave early and host was fine with it because it was a one-time exception.

I think 3-4 hours is generally enough time. However, if the host complains to you then it doesn't matter what I think. Next time you play you need to play longer or face the facts that you may not get invited back. He's running a business, and if he thinks your MO isn't good for business then he may choose not to let you play.

Appreciate the feedback from everyone.

More than anything, I just wanted to know if I was out of line. Obviously, it hadn't ever occurred to me that cashing out after 3.5/4 hours was wrong, and I was surprised when it was brought up in such an intense manner. So it's good to hear from others that my actions were okay.

Over the past few months, I had definitely picked up that a couple players, who previously were very friendly to me, had become noticeably colder. Not surprisingly, they are the two players who are close to the host, buy in deep, have big egos, and have really gotten felted by me in recent months. In retrospect, though I don't think I did anything specifically wrong, I think I should have simply gone to the game with less frequency to let those bad feelings dissipate a bit.

I agree that it's his game, his rules and have no desire to play there again. Poker above all should be fun and I don't think I can achieve that at this game any longer. Onward and upward.

Winning most of the money on the table and leaving can be bad for the game. But when you run a raked game the service you ate providing includes bringing in more players with more money. It sounds like host is unable to do that. THAT Is His Failure NOT yours

I think is just OK to play 3.5 to 5 hrs. Most people I know do play 3 to 5 hours and after that they go somewhere to unwind. If people would stay longer then I guess they are having much fun and don't mind playing longer.

Technically you're doing nothing wrong, but you must be more mindful bc its a bit more intimate vs a large casino that has more anonymous volume.

Every other time the game is good and youre a big winner, be willing to stay till the very end of the session or at least when it gets down to 4 or so where you can have a reasonable excuse for leaving. Every now and then be one of the first to start a game. Run it three times if ure all in and u have the fish drawing to two outs.

Too many "grinders" take that serious attitude and think only about themselves and not doing the little things to keep their "customers", the fish, happy. The latter is underrated as far as helping your bottom line. Why not give a little to protect your "berry patch" in the long run?

I think you're not out of line, however I think the host isn't really out of line either when asking you to stay longer. Now it all depends in which way he's handling the situation and it seems he wasn't really kind to you when asking...

Why not playing longer if you run so hot and they're such bad players ?
I can understand that after 4hrs of poker, you may get tired and want to do something else but let's face it, losing players seeing their money gone for the night is always demoralizing for them, thus it indeed "breaks" the table in some way.

I don't think you should feel culprit to leave the game and there are some big chances that even if you played until the end, they would try to find any other excuse to get rid of you if that was their first intention, but giving losers the illusion they can make it back is always a nice gesture, IMO.

raked game? screw him. If he wants you to play longer, let him give you some rake back at the end of the night. Otherwise, I would either find new game, or keep doing what I was doing and let him tell you that you are no longer welcome. Then call whoever is in charge of illegal gambling in NY to get him shut down.

Please don't do this!

Seems like this is just a transactional issue with the host, and you should treat it the same way. You've done nothing wrong by deciding you want to play 3.5-4 hours and leave. That's certainly in the realm of reasonable in underground games in NYC, though maybe a little short. However, if the host has decided that in big scheme it's not good for his game, he's done nothing wrong either by saying that if you want to play you need to stay longer when you win. It's his game, and you don't have a right to play there.

May be worth seeing how long he wants you to play. If he's saying stay an extra hour (say play 5 hours) if you're winning, then that's different than if he expects you to play until the sun rises.

In my game, everyone knows I leave around 1 AM most of the time, so never get any pushback.

Interesting points. We know that the poker game in question is illegal so technically no one has the right to play there and anything that happens there is pretty much outside the law. So for instance if the guy running the game decides to not pay you out, you don't have any recourse. That's especially the case if you subscribe to MIB211's line of thinking with respect to underground games.

While I don't agree entirely with Jacksfull123's viewpoint of using the law to get revenge on the game operator because he told you that you need to play longer, there are circumstances under which I could see myself reporting a game operator to the authorities. I think that common sense and usual business practices for poker rooms/casinos should guide interactions between underground operators and their customers.

If I were OP, I'd politely probe the issue until I have all the information I need to determine whether I'm going to play there going forward. And I'd not be shy about letting the operator know that I wouldn't be playing there going forward if his answers weren't to my satisfaction. For instance, if he pulled me aside and told me, "You've been hitting and running a lot lately; you need to play longer when you're winning or you won't be welcome back," I'd work the following questions into the conversation:

(1) How long do you require other players to play?
(2) What's the minimum amount of time you'd like me to play? I want to avoid ever discussing this issue again, so give me a minimum time and I'll abide by it and we'll never discuss it again. If I think it's too long, I just won't play here anymore and I'll let my friends know that there's a X-hour minimum so they don't waste their time.

If he can't provide concise answers and he doesn't feel comfortable with you asking those questions, then you should just move on as you already have. If on the other hand he does answer in a straightforward manner and the answers seem reasonable, then I'd say there's no reason to cut ties.

On a related note, years ago before there was live legal poker in MD, I played in an underground game where the operator pulled me aside to discuss tipping. I don't remember his exact wording, but I think he said something like, "You really gotta take better care of the dealers."

I responded with something along the lines of, "I'm very surprised that you'd say that. I'm polite, easygoing, friendly, and I give good action in every game we play [it was a mixed game]. You invited me to this game because you were impressed with my demeanor and etiquette at another game we played together. I also tip on every single hand I win. Is there some sort of minimum tip you'd recommend? If so, please tell me because I need to decide based on your minimum whether it would be worth it to me to continue playing here. I always thought that tipping was a personal decision, but I accept that this is your game and if you have different rules I just need to know so that I don't violate them."

I think he responded with something like, "No, I don't have any rules about it." I then told him that I'd appreciate it if he'd never mention it again, and to his credit he never did. I continued to play in that game until it concluded when the operator moved out of the area.

I don't think this is a fair extension of my line of thinking. There's a huge, huge difference between someone stealing from you and someone not inviting you back to a private game. It's not a question of legal v. illegal, it's that this is a private game and can invite whom they want.

If my experience in NY is any indication, I'd bet he was paying his dealers a meaningless wage, or no base wage at all. Instead, he tried to pressure his players into making it rain, on top of the probably princely sum they were paying in rake.

As much as I appreciate the underground poker economy, sometimes I get a little sick of hearing how greedy the hosts can be. Some of them need to come to terms with the fact that running a one- or two-table poker game a few nights a week isn't a golden ticket out of their day jobs—especially when they're raking it to the brink of death.

That seems to be a major issue in many cases where underground hosts get too pushy with players. They're relying on the game for a critical amount of their income, and their professionalism unravels a little when they feel it threatened in any way (people leaving early, dealers complaining about the money, a whale complaining that he "doesn't like that guy who always wins," etc.).

I can't say for sure from the small number of details about the MD case, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was what I've described.

Thanks all for the thoughts.

First of all, I am absolutely not going to report this game, and would never consider doing so. His game, his rules, and it's certainly not worth escalating things to that level.

I consider myself a pretty friendly guy at the table and to my knowledge don't give off a grinder, headphones wearing vibe. In fact, I've made a number of good friends at this very game, a handful of which I'm going out with this weekend. I personally don't like to run business, but always offer it to anyone who wants it because I think it's good for the game. I strongly agree that it's wise to make the fish happy and it's just good karma to be friendly and easygoing at the felt.

As for why I didn't stay longer than 4 hours, I honestly never thought it was an issue. Usually there was a wait list when I left, if anything I figured the game would be happy to replace me with a fish. So it never remotely occurred to me that cashing out after 4 hours would be this offensive. I'm not necessarily cashing out with massive wins every time, just winning a few hundred bucks just about every session with an occasional bigger scoop.

If the host had simply approached me with a request to stay a couple hours longer after a good session to accommodate his game, I would have been happy to accommodate. As it was, the conversation was pretty intense and he told me I was killing his game and that my "style of play" wasn't a good fit at his game. I did ask him how long he felt I should stay, and he said for winning nights I should stay until the game ends. I usually play from 6:30pm-10:30pm and staying to the end will usually be around 2-3am. He also told me that two players had asked him to blackball me from the game. So even if his request to stay later was reasonable, given how the conversation went, I can't see how I'd ever be comfortable playing there again. Life is just too short for this kind of stuff.

I'm not thrilled with how it went down, but I understand that I'm a tight and aggressive winning player who had been running hot on top of that, and that loose, spewy, and losing players are probably much better for his game/business. There are plenty of other games in the city so playing elsewhere is not a big deal.