FTFY. There's nothing inherently insecure about using two decks as long as you enforce good procedures, and you get a lot more hands per hour in a self-dealt game.

OK I am very familiar with the Movado thread. I posted in it many times. They were indeed using a two deck system of some sort , but no cut cards. BUT , if you actually read the posts you would see that the two deck system was NOT the culprit here. The problem was the players were simply too trusting and totally oblivious to the open deck setting that was going on. They were also not suspicious of the incredible heater that the cheater kept up on them for 5 years.

This was not a case of a highly skilled mechanic using an undetectable system on a group of responsible players. This , in the end, was a case of a group of sheep being sheared weekly, by a semi skilled sociopath who likely could not believe he could keep getting away with it for 5 years.

This Movado thread is not a good example at all to support your argument because of the incompetent actions or lack of actions of the whole group. This guy trying to set decks openly while shuffling at the table would not last long at an experienced game.

Anyway we will continue to use two decks with the proper safeguards and hope for the best. Seems the OP and the bulk of posters agree with this. Thanks for your comments.

Well this seems a good time to make may annual offer of service.

I will gladly shuffle decks for you for $1 per deck. You ship the decks to me. With payment plus return shipping I will shuffle each deck and ship back to you. This way you can use each deck once and each deck has been shuffled by a professional las vegas poker dealer.

Seen this offer before sir. Seems too good to be true! I will see if my crew wants to take you up on this and I will get back to you. Thanks again!

That's the point though. He doesn't have to set the deck while shuffling, because there were two decks. He can set the deck while other people are paying attention to the game. If there were only one deck his only opportunity to set the deck would be while shuffling.

In summation, use two decks if you want to be cheated or you want to cheat. Otherwise, use one deck.

But anyone could, in theory, have a duplicate deck, arrange that deck... and then switch decks when it was his turn to deal. Thus it doesn't make any difference, in terms of cheating by stacking the deck, whether two decks or one deck are used. The stacking wouldn't even have to be at the table... could be when taking a rest room break.

I don't honestly see how two decks make it any easier for a cheater to cheat.

Buzz

The reason it is easier is because players attention is on the hand being dealt. It's built in misdirection

That's because the argument is ridiculous. Cool logic!

We're talking a self dealt game here, right? If you're playing in this type of game and you're seriously worried about being cheated, then you're doing it wrong.

And again it would be far easier to swap in this cold deck if you are using two decks since you can do your switch when people are focused on the game.

And again your example IS totally possible no doubt. I host our game. I select which decks are going to be used for the session. Nobody knows which ones till they show up. I have six sets (12 decks) of Copags and Modianos that have varied fronts/colors. I replace worn decks from time to time so new ones are introduced without prior notice. So it would be difficult to have a duplicate ( for any seperate session) cold deck to slip in!

Precautions like this and simple paying attention cuts down the options for a cheater dramatically. I take my game very serious and realize that cheating is not out of the question so I pay ****ing attention to what my guests are doing, I have a couple of long time poker buds (regs in the game) who help me with this.

Without proper precautions and paying attention your point about two decks making it easier to cheat becomes much more valid certainly. The Movado situation was extreme to the point of incredible to most of us. Anyway you have your concerns about using a 2 card system and I feel that they can be addressed adequately. We don't have to agree. Discussion is productive.

I just purchased cut cards and plan to use those next time. I guess I play with a good group of guys because any of them cheating is not something I have even considered for a long time. Our stakes are low enough that it would not be worth it. We also seem to have different winners often enough that there are no red flags due to someone winning big every time. Anything is possible I guess but up go on promoting 2 decks and playing more hands. I truly don't believe in opening our games up to cheating at all.

yeah if you are worried about cheating in a home game with 2 decks, why are you playing there?

I see. Good point. That makes sense. However... (see below).

You have a good point. It would be easier to switch decks when using two decks.

However...
I believe the possibility of my friends in my home game cheating by setting up cards is remote enough to not merit serious consideration. (But I suppose I won't be able to not watch for the possibility now and then, henceforward).

We judge dangers in this life. Some possibilities are more real than others. For example, I don't worry about getting hit in the skull by a meteorite or a bit of falling space debris. Is it a possibility? Sure. But other possible dangers, such as getting hit by a car while crossing the street are worth more serious consideration. (So I look both ways before crossing the street).

Similarly someone swapping decks is a possibility, but not a serious consideration, in my estimation, in my own home game. If I played in a higher stakes game (our buy in is $30) deck swapping would merit more serious consideration.

Buzz

That guy could cheat because the same person shuffled, cut, and dealt. It's completely silly to blame it on using two decks.

It's not blaming two decks. It's understanding the down side to a procedure.

OK, maybe there could be a downside. I still think using proper procedure (the way Buzz described) with 2 decks gives lower overall risk of cheating than using one deck.

While you may legitimately feel the added speed offsets the risk of two decks, how could two decks possibly carry less risk of cheating than one. Any safeguards you use for two decks can be applied to one deck.

Most stories I have read of dealers cheating involve them looking at a few specific cards when gathering them and then bottom or second dealing them to themself. If the person who gathers the cards and shuffles is not the same one who deals, this kind of cheating can't be done.

Now I suppose you could use just one deck and still have a different person gather and shuffle, a second person cut, and then the 3rd person who deals, but I have never seen that done, and it would end up being much slower, and not any safer than using 2 decks, as far as I can figure.

If your argument is that it is safer to do it that way with 2 decks how can it not be safer to do it that way with one deck?

It would be safer to do it that way with 1 deck than the standard 1 deck method, but it would be even slower. And I don't think it would really be any safer than using the same procedures with 2 decks.

Two deck dealing can be complicated for some. Go with one deck, use a cut card

I wouldn't play at a game that uses one deck. The pace of the game would be too slow. As long as proper procedures are in place there should be no way for players to cheat.

No thanks. 1 deck is too slow. 2 decks is not complicated at all. I don't mind switching to one once the game gets to 3 handed or heads up.

Even first-time players quickly get into the rhythm of a good two deck procedure.

1. Dealer gets a shuffled, cut deck with a cut card beneath it, handed to him from his right. He deals the hand.
2. After the hand is over, the CO hands the dealer the second deck, already shuffled. The dealer takes the cut card off of the first deck, cuts the second deck onto it for the next dealer.
3. Now in the CO, he shuffles the first deck and lays it aside until the end of the hand, when he will set it down to be cut by the dealer.

From the perspective of each player, that is all that has to be done each orbit.