This is why we post in here and don't bother responding to anyone. You're 32 get your **** together.

We have "vamoo's" who speak better English than you do.

Sorry my grammar and spelling was bad was on a flight waiting to depart i will make a full post in a few hours adressing rob and you with all the correct spelling and grammar.

Like your ninja edit, went from calling me a cancer to the community to 32 get my act together. Email notifications show what you really think before you decide to be more PC.

Thanks for bringing that up, Mike. I do think you're a cancer to the community.

So you get Email notifications on any post in this thread? I thought you had this thread as your Internet browser homepage but that makes more sense.

This definitely needs its own thread as it's cluttering up the NF.

Rob you are really embarrassing yourself continuing to post in this thread. Maybe go to nvg and post your troll replies and humorous gifs there where they belong.

And regarding the 2% for referrals you have a shoddy memory. You told me it was 2% of total profits then when it comes to the first payment which happened to be a $230k chop i got $2300 not the $4600 i was rightly expecting. When i queried this i was told oh sorry my mistake its 1% of the total not 2% my bad. Should i have made a post here and put up a site about the $2300 i was shorted? You make these sites for a debt the cost of a cheeseburger so i would clearly have a reason to. Or do the normal thing and laugh it off be a decent human and say no problem these things happen. I chose the latter option as most but not all people would. I was going to suggest leaving it to the adults but Alex seems to have lost his mind as well.

Alex

Im unsure why you are so hostile towards me specifically and not the multitude of others who disagree with pocarrs stance in this case. However if you want to call me a cancer then so be it.

Your contracts are worthless and were the day they were signed.

D. CONTRACTUAL INTENTION
20. An agreement, even if supported by consideration, is not binding as a
contract if it was made without an intention to create legal intentions. That is,
the parties must intend their agreement to be legally binding.

Source

http://www.a4id.org/wp-content/uploa...t-a-glance.pdf

English contract law seemed the most relevant as the 2nd party is based there. So as you see your contract was invalid from the day it was signed as it has no legal intentions. Which makes your xxx is a thief site blatant slander which i would advise taking down. However as the contract wasn't valid from the day it was signed you weren't entitled to a penny of the profits that were made either never mind $150k. You got that due to the good will of the backee and now he doesn't want to play poker anymore so shove your piece of toilet paper where the sun doesn't shine and accept that you're owed nothing legally and ethically.

Also calling into question my ethics is laughable when you run a business that feeds on other peoples hard work. I make my own way in this world have had 100s of flawless transactions in lots of areas of poker and never had a single issue in 10 years so if you are going to dribble nonsense please back it up with facts. Not that i expect that to happen will see a 100 more posts about you being rolled before you reply with something factual.

I guess I've lost all motivation to feel the need to justify ourselves. It's just the Tri-Annual "Everybody hate on pocarr" thing. The first few times, Alex and I would construct well thought out and respectful reply. But the novelty has worn off, and this time I felt that this is such a clear cut situation (i agree others have been close, yet still ruled in our favour), if you and others are allowed to post nonsense bull****, I feel I can too.

It's pretty much the same argument as usual, and the outcome will be no different. The only reason you're fighting so hard (other than you have nothing better to do) is because marcin is your friend, and given how he's been extremely quiet throughout this "debate", it pretty much confirms his guilt.

In regards to your referral it says this on our site:
https://gyazo.com/6449f80a6244d821ebe6de678d439229
So 2% of what we make is 1% of the score/profit. If you were mislead and wouldn't have referred for such a small freeroll (no other stables offer this afaik), you have my deepest apologies.

PS. Congrats on successful transactions, that doesn't make you a good person.

PPS. Agree with corspey, so unless anyone has anything worthwhile to say lets just end it here.

Im done with this haha. I post nonsense bull**** that is the truth and you say im a bad person because i disagree with you're approach to business and no other reason. We have known each other for years and got on well never heard about being a bad person until i pointed out your ****ty tactics in business and how your business is built on micky mouse contracts.

Sorry i guess but its clear pocarr is in the wrong here.

PPS. ye lets end it here when you get totally destroyed by legal facts showing you have zero claim to anything, pocarr strategy seems GTO.

LOL these posts should serve as a HUGE warning to any potential horse who considers playing for Pocarr. jfc

Indeed.

lol after seeing the latest responses I would now say very clearly I highly recommend anyone to avoid dealing with pocarr due to their (questionable at best) business practices.
Maybe there's a reason people respond the way they do "this is why we dont post here or respond to people.." ??? Lol

As an example, you insulting his grammar/English is just lol unprofessional and irrelevant to the discussion. He was extremely reasonable in his posts and not attacking you at all!

from this thread it seems quite clear there is a consensus here. Most (if not all) of the ppl agreeing don't have any bias, anything personally against the Pocarr ppl/company so it's pretty clear you should reconsider if everyone else is unreasonable/"trolling" or it could be you?
Ppl aren't "hating" on pocarr for no reason (or at least 90% of us), there are legitimately things being done wrong and responses are very out of line (as well as being poor business decisions in terms of damaging your reputation)... there's a reason ppl aren't randomly hating on other stables itt, incl ones who post neg feedback and where horses posted responses disagreeing.

And sorry for my poor grammar etc, hope I won't get called cancerous

Edit - I would acknowledge u shove I call is obv bias due to being friends with Marcin but I do think his posts were pretty reasonable and right, I'm pretty sure I'm not bias in saying that..

Even if you feel you're right (would reconsider) about everything, you could still post in a different, more respectful way for the sake of business reputation at least. If you ask someone to read the posts I think think most would agree it doesn't look too good regardless of if you're right or not.

I think it's very important to say despite all of this, people should still respect that pocarr obviously has the right to post negative feedback, and it should still be considered seriously. Even though in some cases they are (allegedly) being unreasonable, and they have acted a bit rude/unprofessional ITT, of course there will be plenty of cases where ppl actually have scammed and as a community these warnings should be respected and appreciated (as we benefit from these warnings to not also get screwed by the same offenders). It's important to consider case by case based on the accused responses if the negative feedback is warranted, same goes with any neg feedback in general. (majority neg feedback is pretty clearly correct though)

Claydol is right i have zero bias against pocarr or against Alex and Rob. I clearly got involved as it involved a friend but it hasn't changed my opinion if i thought he was in the wrong i wouldn't defend him. Have thought their business practises have been out of line for a long time and told them so before more than once in matters that have had nothing to do with me. However when you slander a friend of mine who i personally referred to you and is probably top 5 pocarr most profitable player ever i had to step in.

You're used to doing whatever the hell you want and posting thief websites on a whim because no one has the balls or knowledge to stand up to you but thats got to stop.

http://www.geraldcochlanisathief.com/

http://whois.domaintools.com/geraldcochlanisathief.com

You have 37 domains registered to pocarr.com and i pray they aren't all like that showing full passport numbers. That gentleman's identity is waiting to be stolen do you realise how dangerous having that information out there is? Staking is a risky business if you want a guaranteed business open a casino, need to accept some stakes wont work out and have some empathy when people clearly don't set out to outright steal from you or steal at all and quit poker.

The personal attacks were clearly out of line as well as i have zero personal problems with either of you. I have a problem with pocarr and thats what im addressing in my recent posts.

Something is wrong with me cause I decided to read the posts again instead of sleep ^^.

To add a few things: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=3989 is an excellent and relevant post. (Unbiased too)

In fact almost all of the posts on the matter were quite good (doesn't necessarily mean 100% correct or factual, but definitely valid), acbarone, Moshman, Demetri etc honestly pretty much all except a few spam/insult type posts.

The posts and discussion were actually completely (or mostly at least) reasonable from the beginning but obv turned into a ****storm quickly.
There are some tricky things in the case itself and I agree quitting = all MU forgiven is tough for multiple reasons (such as being hard/impossible/impractical to track if guy truly quits etc, new account or different sites or live pro etc, plus "forever" is a long time)..
As I mentioned usually compromise is best and fairest (and if both parties are reasonable seems like the natural ending point) - almost def less than 50% depending on exact circumstances, mu amount reason for quitting etc. Full amount is absurd as others explained - you freeroll and basically make a sick interest loan which is prob illegal. The argument that most don't pay back isn't valid for it not being a freeroll. If others scam and don't pay it's not a reason you can make unreasonable terms.

I'll say that in general most ppl who are "good enough to get staked" are not really in a position where quitting poker "forever" is much of a decent option at all- you guys exaggerate or at least overestimate how easy it is for someone to just quit to forgive MU.

Again, in general I advise against min volume type clauses. Use guidelines/default expectations and pick horses who are reasonable and honest.. problem is when you make people play when they don't want to they will play at best worst than normal and at worst can purposely play bad to drop money to force you to drop them or similar. Most of the time it's ofc in the middle of the spectrum. I obviously understand if you aren't totally fish then you'll be flexible and allow exception upon discussion but this is still worth a mention..


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/ne...ply&p=51112853

This is a good example imo- obviously what he did with the $1/2 games isn't great but it's better than punting at his regular games just because he "has to play".. in fact, that shows time maybe wasn't the issue and he didn't want to play regular games due to not feeling comfortable (confidence for example, or stress that means he doesn't expect to play a game).

Don't think this was ever disputed but absolutely clear that actual loans given[/B] are always 100% owed, obviously, and separates from make up from games played (even if it was added to make up during the deal).

Also rob basically just spammed multiple times whilst contributing nothing (actually hurting his company, and to a lesser extent personal, rep)

Again +1 that this should get its own thread/discussion.

The thief site should be taken down asap. It is absolutely insanely out of line and likely illegal etc. I don't know if any single person ITT would think it's close to reasonable, yet many would agree negative feedback is appropriate.
Seriously! What reason is there to put address and ph number other than blackmailing him?!

Likely looks like you're both in the wrong, he should offer more than 0, you shouldn't expect/demand 100%, and not make this site.

Wanna know why I hate on pocarr? (as well as many others)
cause you guys may be good poker players and coaches.
but you are quite possibly the most unqualified group of people to run a business I have ever seen.
If i can browse this thread for the past 30 pages and point out something wrong with every 3rd (or 4th) post a pocarr rep makes.. thats not my fault. that is yours.
FYI robtinnions post of trying post an "unbiased" opinion.. do yourself a favor and stick to poker bud.


I would wager everything that I am not the only one who thinks that either (on any account)

So maybe the staking community doesn't have a consensus here, but EVERYONE except Pocarr&co. pretty much agrees that Marcin is NOT A THIEF. The amount he owes is debatable, but HE DID NOT STEAL FROM YOU.

And you still have the site up?

I think inappropriate, but if the site wants to warn people to deal with him (similar to this thread) it's ok but potential employer finding it etc. is quite ridic, also his personal details do not belong in that case at all lol just power tripping and trying to bully/blackmail him into paying you. It's a major abuse of position to use those personal details given in trust and faith for this purpose.

The site's domain is xxxisatheif.com and the subtitle said "HOW Mxxxxx Mxxxx STOLE MONEY FROM INVESTORS".

He did not steal. He is not a thief.

Pocarr can make a website xxxbreachedouragreement.com but don't make him Bernie Madoff.

This is why your stable is the nuts (I have friends who are staked by you) and Pocarr is a joke. I would never recommend any prospective horse do business with them. When I finished up with BBZ's stable (making substantial profit even after a buyout for only a percentage of makeup paid back over time) we agreed my time was better spent elsewhere as the game had passed me by and my makeup was not worth 100% of face value anymore as there was no guarantee i'd ever recoup it at my current ABI, and if I lowered it I would require loans to continue playing professionally at a lower ABI which could just lead to a never ending makeup spiral. We agreed to a buyout for a percentage paid back monthly at a rate I could afford, and I pursued a lucrative offer in another field that is a better use of my time hourly rate wise; the stable recoups a portion of the MU and everyone moves on. The BBZ stable is well run, and doesn't treat it's players like slaves. Pocarr is a disgrace.

If a player in my situation had no ethics whatsoever they could have easily just played poorly deliberately making no effort to improve until dropped and walked away completely free of makeup, putting in the bare minimum volume requirements. Yes, that's morally wrong but treating your players like garbage will lead to your players treating you like garbage as well.

Yes, they may have signed a contract but someone quitting poker should not owe 100%, they should be forced to offer action to their backer for any poker they play for the rest of their life unless they agree to a fair buyout (substantially under 100% and as OMGClaydol said probably under 50%) paid back at an agreed upon rate that allows the horse to continue to cover their own living expenses out of whatever wage they have in their new career. A staking agreement cannot and should not be risk free for a backer, if you get your money back when your horse loses and can't make enough poker to meet your arbitrary requirements and needs to work to make a living you aren't taking a risk, you're effectively exploiting your horse and freerolling.

Would you rather the horse just put in the bare minimum effort and lose more of your money? Because that's what's going to happen if you 'trap' someone who doesn't want to play poker anymore in the job forever. Try and reach an agreement for a buy-out that your horse can afford

There are two stables I would and do would advise all of my poker friends to steer cleer of and they're Pocarr and another one that I won't name.

Well run stables like BitB and BBZ's stables are exactly what poker stables should be and it's baffling that other stables treat their players so poorly and continue to get applicants.

There's a huge difference between someone stealing from you and deciding to quit poker and you 'not letting them'. It's power tripping and pretty close to blackmail and is quite unprofessional to not allow a player to move on from poker if they simply do not want to play at all anymore. Yes, it sucks. Yes, the horse should try and offer some sort of buy-out they can afford, or at the very least rights to all poker action in any game live or online until such time as the makeup is cleared or a buyout is agreed to. You can't force a horse to play for you forever or owe 100% of makeup, that's basically slavery and at best it is a loaded contract that i'm sure would be unenforceable.

Making a 'isathief.com' site for someone in that situation is disgraceful and is a misuse of what should be a tool to out actual scammers and thieves. Pocarr is a joke.

+1 to SwoopAE

Please at least remove the address, skype and phone number asap.

For what its worth I agree it's worthy of a negative feedback post, but not a thief one. Just realised I forgot to include that in my post.

Agree with omgclaydol.

So it seems the main issue (again) is more with the site and its contents/URL?

If we change/remove this we can all get on with our lives?

From the posts in the thread, that seems pretty obvious.

I would also highly recommend both Pocarr and Marcin to negotiate a mutually agreed upon compromise (likely around the 50% area, def not 0 and def not 100).

Ok was just confirming it's the same debate as always. See you all again in a few months.

*Bangs Gavel*