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Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks

06-21-2015 , 02:01 PM
Bovada $2MTT Turbo, Blinds: 400/800/80, Far from Money

Preflop: Vill(11,500) limps UTG1; Hero(22,500) raises to 2800 from HJ with AK; Vill limp/calls
Flop: Q75 rainbow [pot=7520] Vill checks (stack=8700); Hero cbets 4300; Vill check/calls
Turn: 2 [Pot=16120] Vill donk-jams 4200, Hero calls

*Vill Stats: 16/0 over only 8 hands


Ok so I have 2 main points of contention here: (1) Do I cbet this flop? SPR is almost 1, so I'm basically committing myself if I bet, and (2) do I call the donk-jam on the turn? Only need to win about 20%, but I don't think I win nearly that much

Should I just be trying to get to showdown here and folding to any vill aggression? I thought maybe I could get vill to fold some better hands OTF (low and medium pairs), but that may be overly ambitious thinking by me.

Thanks for any input
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-21-2015 , 02:30 PM
I don't see many hands in vill's range that you are beating for showdown value and I feel like you played the hand well so far, but got in a tough spot. Personally I would fold the turn donk jam with A high unless I had a super good read. It's bad to lose that many BBs, but you are still alive. What happened on the river?
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-22-2015 , 08:17 AM
Check or shove flop.... You made it awkward by betting this amount....
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-22-2015 , 10:05 AM
1) cbet the flop, but with a shove

He's so short it's only a bit over pot size (pot is ~7500, he has ~8600 behind)

He is either trapping with KK+ or he's being a $2 limptard and he didn't connect either. Yeah, sometimes you'll lose, but I think there's easily enough limptard in his range that either he will fold 1/3 of the time or you will improve and beat him anyway and show a profit in the long run.

On a more general note, try to give your opponents the difficult decision of whether they want to call for their life, rather than let them give you the awkward choices.
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-22-2015 , 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamTrousers
1) cbet the flop, but with a shove

He's so short it's only a bit over pot size (pot is ~7500, he has ~8600 behind)
I'd have raised 550 more pre so we could just jam any flop for a psb. Thoughts on that?
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-23-2015 , 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated
I'd have raised 550 more pre so we could just jam any flop for a psb. Thoughts on that?
This is probably my preferred piece of advice so far.

For those that mentioned just over-jamming the flop: what hands do we do this with for value? It just seems like we would be very unbalanced and it seems transparent that we whiffed with AK, or maybe we have 88-JJ and just don't know what else to do. My thought was basically that a standard-sized cbet looked stronger than a pot-sized jam
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-23-2015 , 04:04 PM
What were stacks behind hero? Would probably just rip ore assuming no one over 18bbs
As played shove flop
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-23-2015 , 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arobinson11
What were stacks behind hero? Would probably just rip ore assuming no one over 18bbs
As played shove flop
This is something I thought about also when starting to review the hand. Most other stacks at the table we around 25bb like myself and didn't know if I should just jam my whole stack in from MP like that. Typically I'm in favor of shoving AK preflop in close spots to avoid mess post-flop spots with shorter stacks, but this seemed a bit too deep to take that line.

What effective stack size would you suggest just ripping it in PF in a spot like this?
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-24-2015 , 02:01 AM
Probably wouldn't do it more than 20 eff and depends on table dynamics. Honestly might limp this spot hoping to get a light shove from someone behind. Stacks are really awkward for raising here imo.
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-24-2015 , 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SetSetter
For those that mentioned just over-jamming the flop: what hands do we do this with for value? It just seems like we would be very unbalanced and it seems transparent that we whiffed with AK, or maybe we have 88-JJ and just don't know what else to do.
As long as he folds >35% of the time, we're making a nice easy profit without any awkward decisions. Don't forget to include the chips we get when he does calls and we also win or chop. There's no hand he can have with 100% equity because even if he has a set we can always hit Jack and Ten for nut straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arobinson11
Honestly might limp this spot hoping to get a light shove from someone behind.
Don't like limping. You need to be certain there are a couple of banker aggrotards behind to risk this. Otherwise everyone else could limp along and we're risking wasting a really good hand in a multiway unraised pot, when we're surely going to be better off playing in position against one player who likely has a weak range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arobinson11
Stacks are really awkward for raising here imo.
I can't really see how stacks can ever be awkward for raising with a top 5% hand in an unraised pot.
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-24-2015 , 10:08 PM
We went to the flop heads up and already in an awkward spot, limping incentivizes others behind to steal or allows then to take a flop with a dominated hand which we stack on ace or king high flops. Of course it doesn't always work out, it's definitely debatable but it certainly has merit and is worth considering.
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-25-2015 , 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arobinson11
We went to the flop heads up and already in an awkward spot, limping incentivizes others behind to steal or allows then to take a flop with a dominated hand which we stack on ace or king high flops. Of course it doesn't always work out, it's definitely debatable but it certainly has merit and is worth considering.
Wait... so your suggesting to overlimp AKo?

That is just bad... not debatable... We want to play heads up post or get it in pre here not invite other players to get in cheap and see a flop > 3-way
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-25-2015 , 11:30 AM
That's not the only outcome, you often get all the chips in pre against dominated hands that fold to your raise. It certainly isn't bad.
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-25-2015 , 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arobinson11
That's not the only outcome, you often get all the chips in pre against dominated hands that fold to your raise. It certainly isn't bad.
Where do you get that we often get the chips in pre here? We are playing 30BB here... Assuming that the rest of the table is more or less at the same level, who is ever going to shove a weak ace for more than 20BB after we overlimp?
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-25-2015 , 02:21 PM
As has been pointed out, if stacks behind are short as well, you can just jam pre.
Smaller pre as played.
Looks like your sizing might be too big in general.
Flop is weird, might jam or 1500/c
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-25-2015 , 08:18 PM
As mentioned above, would suggest ripping pre if all other stacks left to act artery oh we're sub 20 BB's, but if there were bigger stacks then an ISO is fine.

I don't hate either iso'ing smaller (like 2.7x) you give yourself a little more playability post-flop, or to raise bigger, as suggested above, to give yourself better odds on jamming any flop.
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-26-2015 , 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by btthywrsooted
Where do you get that we often get the chips in pre here? We are playing 30BB here... Assuming that the rest of the table is more or less at the same level, who is ever going to shove a weak ace for more than 20BB after we overlimp?
It's a $2 turbo, I think it's safe to assume 30bbs is one of the bigger stacks
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-26-2015 , 03:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arobinson11
It's a $2 turbo, I think it's safe to assume 30bbs is one of the bigger stacks
bump! Do you think it is safe to assume players shove >20BB with weak aces here?
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-26-2015 , 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by btthywrsooted
bump! Do you think it is safe to assume players shove >20BB with weak aces here?
I've seen it quite often, depends on the table.
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-27-2015 , 08:51 PM
Overlimpers rarely trap, shove odds get good for late position players if openlimper is a fish. I see the logic with the AK overlimp trap although I never do it.

Though stars SSMTT regulars mostly play absurd amount of tables (?) and might miss these spots, thus the trap isn't working often enough. As a forum hand I think most people would shove wide if there is for example 3 limps, open limper is 40/5, 6bb total pot and Hero is BTN, SB or BB with 15-25bb and decent hand.
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
06-28-2015 , 05:00 PM
shoving pre is not so bad here with AK. my 1st choice. (70% of time). If they all fold you win a decent pot no risk (~10% increase in stack). Might get heads up with a weaker hand winner more often than not. Might race and win big pot ~47% of the time.

I'd be making my preflop raise a little smaller (1800-1900), this should be enough to isolate to one or two villians. leaves you more room to fold after the flop if you wiff, and face aggressive action. (I'd do this about 27% of time)

Limping here seems wrong. unless you have a specific read on a player whom you think might raise with weak hands, and your hoping to trap them. (3% only because I can't remember the last time I over limped AK in this spot, but to say never do might be going to far.) If you feel like giving up some equity to balance your range, or have a maniac to your left, maybe limping ok occasionally.)
Whiff Flop with AK, Awkward Stacks Quote
07-02-2015 , 02:23 PM
cbet is way too big IMO. your not really don't get floated much when villain has pot left so i think like 3K is plenty to fold him of his range. Check back is good too but this bet is too big
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