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Old 07-23-2012, 05:29 PM   #1
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Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

Is this a +EV Open Shove?
The Hand:
    Poker Stars, $20 Buy-in (300/600 blinds, 70 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #13576192

    MP1: 25,674 (42.8 bb)
    MP2: 6,140 (10.2 bb)
    MP3: 14,531 (24.2 bb)
    Hero (CO): 10,461 (17.4 bb)
    BTN: 25,696 (42.8 bb)
    SB: 9,943 (16.6 bb)
    BB: 34,002 (56.7 bb)
    UTG+1: 18,934 (31.6 bb)
    UTG+2: 4,359 (7.3 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with 6 A
    5 folds, Hero raises to 10,391 and is all-in, BTN raises to 20,182, 2 folds

    Flop: (22,312) K J 6 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
    Turn: (22,312) 9 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
    River: (22,312) 9 (2 players, 1 is all-in)




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    The facts:

    Villain main stats in 141 hands: is 14/11/2,7 (vpip/pfr/af)
    I think villain calling range is about 12%.
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    Old 07-23-2012, 05:34 PM   #2
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    Re: Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

    Bit too loose imo, fold and wait for a better spot. Another option is raise/fold.
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    Old 07-23-2012, 07:26 PM   #3
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    Re: Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

    way too looose with almost 18 bbs,

    10-11 bbs should be instant push

    12-13 bbs should be a push when the table is tight

    with your stack, you can just min raise and fold
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    Old 07-23-2012, 07:37 PM   #4
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    Re: Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

    Folding is pretty terrible. At least jam but usually either r/f or r/c.
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    Old 07-24-2012, 08:36 AM   #5
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    Re: Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

    jam is > fold vs most players (especially at low buyins)
    i'd r/decide as well mostly
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    Old 07-24-2012, 08:58 AM   #6
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    Re: Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

    Sincerely, I think shoving is +EV in the long run due to villain calling range. He is calling too tight in this spot, I still have fold equity with 17bbs. I also have so fewer opponents after my shove, only 3 players left to act, villain in the BTN and the blinds.
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    Old 07-24-2012, 09:36 AM   #7
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    Re: Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

    given your M is just under 7 it's never to loose when you shove!
    the problem is that open shoving 15bbs or more doesn't indicate a lot of strenght! (not for all, but for many players). therefore you could get snapped off by 77 & 88 or maybe hands like ATs, AJo etc.

    but def +ev to shove here
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    Old 07-24-2012, 12:06 PM   #8
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MatteoBounce View Post
    given your M is just under 7 it's never to loose when you shove!
    the problem is that open shoving 15bbs or more doesn't indicate a lot of strenght! (not for all, but for many players). therefore you could get snapped off by 77 & 88 or maybe hands like ATs, AJo etc.

    but def +ev to shove here
    +ev, but rarely optimal.

    If the villains who are left to act will 3bet shove on us alot when we 2.1x, then open shoving is best. Since people rarely have wide 3bet shove ranges in lows/micros we should be r/f here.

    R/f>>>>open shove>>>>r/c
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    Old 07-25-2012, 04:04 PM   #9
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    Re: Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Protential View Post
    +ev, but rarely optimal.

    If the villains who are left to act will 3bet shove on us alot when we 2.1x, then open shoving is best. Since people rarely have wide 3bet shove ranges in lows/micros we should be r/f here.

    R/f>>>>open shove>>>>r/c
    +1
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    Old 07-25-2012, 05:12 PM   #10
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    Re: Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MeowImQh View Post
    way too looose with almost 18 bbs,

    10-11 bbs should be instant push

    12-13 bbs should be a push when the table is tight

    with your stack, you can just min raise and fold
    You are wrong. There s already antes involved, thats why effective bb is lower and just saying you got 18 bb is not right ;-)

    Shoving is +ev but i like r/f more in these spots as other poster s already mentioned.
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    Old 07-25-2012, 05:39 PM   #11
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    What i dont like about this spot, is that we are dominated by villains calling range. If he has calls, I rather be on two live cards. If we really want to make a move, which i kind of like right about now, i like something connected suited or w/ 1 or 2 gaps, 4 6, 9 10.

    Of course we want the table to fold regardless, but at least our ace isnt crushed, and our tail 6 is so weak vs 77+.

    Whats the table dynamic lately? These decisions really weigh on how loose the big stacks are calling down the dieing stacks. Or is it one of those check down fold tables and only premiums showing down?
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    Old 07-26-2012, 07:03 AM   #12
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    Re: Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

    I'm in r/f camp here.
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    Old 07-26-2012, 08:04 AM   #13
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    Re: Middle Game A6s OpenShove CO position

    jamming is +EV for sure. but r/f is optimal. don think we can r/c this vs 90% of players.
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