Hi All,

I think there are a lot of spots like this we come across and end up making what I believe to be the wrong move and getting our stack in pf.

We at the FT of a small $5 tournament on Carbon Poker, with about $200 up top.

We are 7/9 with 11 BBs sitting in the BB with pkt 10s. Utg +1 stack that has played fairly standard (haven't seen him show down any poor hands) with 40BBs opens to 2.2x.

I chose to just call here as I believe we have very low fold equity and he will cbet a huge pct of boards here. Thoughts?

Flop came AJK and he bet half pot and I folded.

shove>fold>call

I'm open to suggestions but explain why shove is the best option...

you're ahead of his range, you have 11bbs, and you need a double up to have a chance to make any real money at this FT

With us having TT and an M of ~7 and villain having such a big stack that he doesn't need to shove anything, I'm always shoving here. I'm never just callign off 20% of my stack to let him connect a flop with his overcards.

S >>>> f > c > r

@Math - You're argument doesn't make a lot of sense. If he is basically never folding preflop to a shove, and we can assign him some type of range, what advantage does getting our money in preflop provide? We are not folding all boards with any over cards, we are check/shoving most boards, AJK just isn't one of them. We are getting it in on any non Ace board with only a single higher card or worse.

A great advantage of just calling here preflop is that we are able to get our money in significantly ahead after a check/shove as V is pot committed after a c bet.

Also, spoiler alert, I took 2nd

You are being results oriented. You took 2nd, but your play with the call was absolutely wrong. With 11bbs, you still have fold equity whether you believe it or not. We cant just have 11bbs and be calling hands, especially call folding. If we call here, that leaves us 9bbs. Then were small blind, now we have 8bbs if we fold. Now you have no fold equity, and big hands don't come round often enough to not get it in with 10s here regardless of your thoughts. Only 4 hands have you crush, so we are WAY ahead of his range, and even if we are racing, so be it. Get it in.

@KCYoung - All in is obv the standard play here. How about 15 BBs? Where is your gii line?

you're gonna miss value from the 55-99 part of his range by not jamming pre.

your argument doesn't make a lot of sense either. V is not necessarily pot committed after a c-bet, it depends what the board is. If it's Q56 and he has AJ, you c/j and he folds and you don't get the full double up. this scenario is going to happen with a good chunk of his range. also a lot of the time he simply catches up to you otf and you get your money in bad.

Same with a 15bb stack, I am still shipping it against his range. Maybe in the 20 range I 3 bet and can find a fold if he reships. which would be player dependent. I don't like calling here with 10s especially out of position. I am shipping or three betting.

Why not just flat if you don't wanna get it in for 20bb? I'm personally shoving since we're probably close to flipping vs his calling range, it kills his positional advantage and we just increased our stack a significant amount if he folds. 3 bet/folding TT is really bad IMO. With 20bb stacks if we're 3 betting we should be shoving.

You think flatting is worse then raise folding? I don't like either really either, but I hate just calling out of position. I am just saying with a bigger stack then he has, its more of an option in the 20-25 range then it is the 11 (which he has) to 15bb range which is obvious shove. I wouldn't mind shove with all those size stacks, but I don't like calling with ANY of em.

^yeah at 20bbs TT is still a jam, somewhere around 25bbs it becomes a flat vs. a +1 open. imo.

No. I'm saying for 20bb shove > flat > fold >>>>>>>> raise/fold

^nah. shove > flat > raise/fold > fold

Poor assumption, IMO, and therefore not part of my argument. If he is never folding to a shove, then shoving gives no advantage. If he never folds to a shove then his open range is too narrow.

We are 54% against this range.

66+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, AJo+, KQo

I don't agree that it makes sense to gii preflop here with 15BBs, even less so considering ICM at FT. Of course we always have SOME kind of fold equity, but in this spot vs this range I'd say we are getting folds 20% or less of the time. Unless we have a read that V is particularly LAG then I don't see any reason to ship in this spot pre. The fact is that on occasions it makes sense to take flops OOP, slightly ahead of V's range, even when shallow stacked.

If we raise we're gonna make it 5.5bb ish. We really gonna fold TT given pot odds? It's gonna be 14.5bb to call roughly a pot of 27bb. Even if his range is QQ+, AK which is a very nitty assumption we can't fold.

^****. sorry I'm an idiot.

what I meant to say was: shove > flat > raise/call (not r/f) > fold. It's actually probably close which is worse, open folding or 3b/f...both are pretty atrocious.

you're wrong, but whatever, clearly we're not going to change your opinion on this, so go ahead and flat them. in the grand scheme of things, there are worse leaks to have than this.

Depends on knowing all stacksizes and payouts.

Just telling us what's up top and that one other opponent has 40 BB's isn't enough info.

I'm shoving here with 10bb every time.
Just flatting and hoping for a good board to get it in isn't the best option imo.
We keep whatever fold equity we have by jamming pre flop along with getting value from smaller pairs etc.

Sent from my GT-I8200N using 2+2 Forums

No one other than Phil Hellmuth is going to agree with you, then call here is good.
Starting with 20BB we can think about that.

10BB I am shoving every time as well. (I had 12 to start the hand)

The real purpose of this thread is to answer the question 'How do we play medium pairs OOP to an EP raise when we have between 10 and 20 BBs (with more chips I'm assuming we just flat most of the time). How does our opponent's stack size affect our decision? Are we more likely to gii with 15 BB if the opener has 25-30BB than if he has 40+?

For the people that said they are gii with 10s with anything below 20BB, are you doing this with 88 and 99 as well? If not, why?

My question is this, why are we shoving 15-20BB from OOP to an EP raise when we are only called by AK and 10s+? Seems like a lot of risk for a relatively small gain. Why not flat here and let V barrel and win an extra bet and sometimes more? If I call an extra 1.2BB from the BB and end up folding 1/3 of flops, that isn't the end of the world. Also, we will get folds from some smaller pairs when we jam pf as well.