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Old 04-25-2012, 01:30 PM   #1
grinder
 
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Is there one road to Rome?

Information

MP: 32/26/12 2.8 488 hands (VPIP/PFR/3B/flop agg)
He was playing 10-12 tables 2/4 straightforward, in our confrontations
he had almost always the goods, only 1 time he barreld an UI flushdraw on riv

SB:59/35/22/11.3 65 hands (VPIP/PFR/3B/4B)
-donked flushdraw
-limp/rr A8o,AJ,AT,QJo
-gives massive action with pairs and just blindly barrels all streets no matter
how the board runs out
-checked 4x turn after cb flop had nothing

Hand

2/4

Preflop: Hero is BB with J J
UTG folds, MP raises, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP calls, SB caps, Hero calls, MP calls

Flop: (12 SB) 8 K 5 (3 players)
SB bets,

Questions

What kind of road do I choose.

1. Try to get it HUHU with bad SB
2. Call and get a better picture of MP his range
3. ....

Last edited by TH3CLOWN; 04-25-2012 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:00 PM   #2
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

given SB description I'd certainly pop it up and try to force out MP
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:11 PM   #3
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

3. Raise for value because you have the best hand
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:33 AM   #4
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

You have to raise I think and call a 3, SB PF cap doesn't make sense and given your notes I think you have the best hand. I would aim to get pot headsup
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:50 AM   #5
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

Idk, I don't like raising. Forcing out QQ would be nice, but other than that your raise allows good MP to play perfectly. SB has eh ... 2 cards and wants to barrel off -> let him. Perfect spot to induce. Meanwhile, get value from MPs UPs and 3 outers.
Call flop. Reevaluate turn.
One piece of advice I got in this forum is not to try to protect your hand if it may not be best when 2nd to act 3W.
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:11 AM   #6
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

When SB leads I thought about all his other played hands,
so I raised him and try to force out MP, to be honest I had
no idea why I did this.

We want to get more money in the pot and loose less when behind right?
I think your right mic, when we take this line, we accomplish this.

Flop: (12 SB) 8 K 5 (3 players)

SB bets, Hero raises , MP 3-bets , SB calls , Hero?
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:35 AM   #7
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

Results-oriented. Come up with ranges for MP and SB after the preflop action and you'll see that you're way ahead at the first flop decision point. Just calling and allowing MP to stick around for one bet with hands like 89s, Ax (especially Ac), and even smaller pp is bad for you. Also consider the added value of being last to act on future streets when MP folds the flop.

The reason you were in an uncomfortable spot in this hand is because you were sandwiched between two aggressive players, not because you raised.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:46 AM   #8
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

Must raise flop.
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:46 AM   #9
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroGrinder84 View Post
Idk, I don't like raising. Forcing out QQ would be nice, but other than that your raise allows good MP to play perfectly. SB has eh ... 2 cards and wants to barrel off -> let him. Perfect spot to induce. Meanwhile, get value from MPs UPs and 3 outers.
Call flop. Reevaluate turn.
One piece of advice I got in this forum is not to try to protect your hand if it may not be best when 2nd to act 3W.
this.
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Old 05-23-2012, 02:30 AM   #10
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

I like a flop raise. We're happy when MP folds a hand like AT, even something like 77 really. Yes, MP can play perfect against, but he also can play close to perfect if we just call the flop. Pot is so big at this point that I feel like it doesn't really matter that our range is face up to MP, we just need to give ourselves the best chance to win it at showdown by isolating SB.

As played, I see a turn with my set/BDFD outs getting 20:1.
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:36 PM   #11
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroGrinder84 View Post
Idk, I don't like raising. Forcing out QQ would be nice, but other than that your raise allows good MP to play perfectly. SB has eh ... 2 cards and wants to barrel off -> let him. Perfect spot to induce. Meanwhile, get value from MPs UPs and 3 outers.
Call flop. Reevaluate turn.
One piece of advice I got in this forum is not to try to protect your hand if it may not be best when 2nd to act 3W.
imo terrible advice and i disagree to la peste

in big pot, no time to bother with losing bet but more to try win the pot

often u can read ( top i think) raising the second best hand is right in big pot to drop other player if it helps increase ure equity in the pot.

here i raise to drop 3rd player.

if u had KK on A72 then ure equity wouldnt matter much since its way/way behind, but here the pot too drawy and tooo many overcard possible

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 05-24-2012 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:47 PM   #12
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

I like raising the flop to get a better picture of where you are. if MP three bets two raises (like he did), then I would give him credit for having the K, other wise you can bet down against SB. I would call the 3bet on the flop because there is so much money in the pot and try to hit a set.
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:26 PM   #13
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

wow la peste... really
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:08 AM   #14
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

yeah. why? is that bad? I don't hate a raise, but I really don't find it mandatory for the same reasons microgrinder stated. I could be way off here. I talked to OP about this hand and I said to him that I would not raise the flop, but that I could be wrong on that. I asked him to post the hand, figuring most people would come out the way they did and that I would be in the minority. Was surprised that microgrinder said what he did, and thought he really summed it up nicely.

Last edited by La Peste; 05-26-2012 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:46 AM   #15
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Re: Is there one road to Rome?

yeah they are are valid reasons but it just seems pot size easily trumps them...
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