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Old 07-27-2012, 09:34 AM   #1
journeyman
 
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River raise/fold

Villain is 25/19 Over 250 hands


    Poker Stars, $2/$4 Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #13587592

    Preflop: Hero is UTG with J Q
    Hero raises, 2 folds, BTN calls, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Hero calls, BTN calls

    Flop: (10 SB) 2 6 Q (3 players)
    SB bets, Hero calls, BTN folds

    Turn: (6 BB) A (2 players)
    SB bets, Hero calls

    River: (8 BB) J (2 players)
    SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero folds




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    The Nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 07-27-2012, 10:06 AM   #2
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    Pop the flop for money town.
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    Old 07-27-2012, 11:01 AM   #3
    journeyman
     
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    Re: River raise/fold

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rooksx View Post
    Pop the flop for money town.
    I was going to raise a non-A/K turn.
    The Nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 07-27-2012, 02:26 PM   #4
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
    I was going to raise a non-A/K turn.
    Yeah I get that, but 3-way it's a little less likely that SB will c-bet the turn. I personally prefer to take the money when I know it's there. Plus you're probably raising flush draws in your range so raising this hand could be a good way of balancing those draws.

    On the river: I think raising is fine. Folding to the 3-bet instinctively feels gross but it's hard to come up with a worse hand that he would 3-bet with. In practice I never fold this but doing so seems right. You would be folding a large portion of your range though as you have few possible combos after raising.
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    Old 07-27-2012, 02:28 PM   #5
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    Re: River raise/fold

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
    I was going to raise a non-A/K turn.
    Why? On the flop we have tons of equity with our club draw on top of our TPGK. I would suspect our equity would go down on a non-club turn. I really want to get as much money as I can in on the flop. We are also going to see villain shut down when we wait for the turn and a club drops.

    This just doesn't seem like a good hand to "Wait" on.

    Raise flop
    Call river.
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    Old 07-27-2012, 03:11 PM   #6
    journeyman
     
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    Re: River raise/fold

    Btn is a fish and assumed he would peel just about ATC. I think it raising now would be fine, but dont see flatting being that much less Ev, if at all.
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    Old 08-04-2012, 05:01 AM   #7
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    Re: River raise/fold

    In Villain's shoes on the river, I probably would have been thinking, "WTF? Does he really have KT?!"

    I guess QJ seems possible too but I would have trouble sorting out the "wait until the turn, but, hold on, not that turn" play that goes along with QJ, and the fact that the flop was 3-way wouldn't help me with the sorting.

    If waiting until the river has continued to gain in popularity since I was last allowed to play on Stars, then I guess Villain could also hope to see a naked Ax.

    Anyway, I think Villain probably had aces up or better. But if we look at the hand from Villain's perspective, I don't think it's very easy to put Hero on a hand. Which muddies up the situation a little bit, but I think people are more likely to make a WTF call than a WTF 3-bet, so maybe the lack of a clear hand that Hero is representing doesn't matter so much. He's raising against a preflop 3-bettor on 26QAJ, and that seems strong.
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    Old 08-04-2012, 01:07 PM   #8
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    Re: River raise/fold

    Raise flop. Waiting turn is ok when its HU and you dont have a flush draw.

    Just call river. Your equity is around 50% against a 3b range. You are trying to get value from AK(12 combos) while losing to sets (5 combos) and better twopairs(12 combos). If he were more loose then he would have more bad hands in his range and it'd be better to raise. As it is, calling is better.

    Once you raise and he 3bets, folding is ok. I cant see any worse hands in his 3betting range unless he is crazy or you have a very foldy image.
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    Old 08-06-2012, 10:51 PM   #9
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    Re: River raise/fold

    never letting off the gas here! call the river for sure dont fold I put him on ako 3 bets pre youd really have to put him on aks or ajs in which case is gross but never folding. the downside to the story is in 2/4 hes never folding either if you push on the flop, but were here to make money not c/c
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    Old 08-08-2012, 10:09 PM   #10
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    Re: River raise/fold

    Never make a heroic river fold online.
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    Old 08-09-2012, 03:16 PM   #11
    adept
     
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    Re: River raise/fold

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rooksx View Post
    ... Plus you're probably raising flush draws in your range so raising this hand could be a good way of balancing those draws.
    I actually think its more the opposite. We're going to be raising a ton of value hands on this flop because we want to drive out any equity the SB has at this point and get the pot heads up. A clever opponent will know this and know our flop call is super weak, basically a very weak made hand or some type of weak over card hand and he should 2 barrel a ton.

    If we want to balance this (not saying we should) by having some value hands we can raise on blank turns, we want to delay with hands that cost us the least by allowing SB to come along cheaply and don't miss out on a ton of value when BB has a big hand, TP+FD fits nicely into this category.

    If we raise and BB 3-bets the flop, we can't really jam or at least its not a fist pump. Its not like we're sacrificing 3-4 bets by delaying, where as if we slow played a set, we could be sacrificing that many.
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    Old 08-09-2012, 03:19 PM   #12
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    Re: River raise/fold

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bruce View Post
    Never make a heroic river fold online.
    This is just bad advice.
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