brainstorming time!

limit holdem on tv

stars (and ftp) had those nighttime tv poker programs where nl was being promoted obviously. why not the same for limit? they could promote their lhe pros at the same time or have their big name tv pros be forced to play lhe also. 6max lhe on tv with isildur, daniel negreanu, nanonoko, etc...

also, similar to the nanonoko or isildur challenges, have stars heavily promote some lhe challenges...one of their pros (i guess nl/tv guys) vs one of their lhe pros, for a prize or bragging rights. or one of their pros vs whichever lhe player wins the weekly promo, with stars kicking in a prize pool.

bonus vpp for playing at a table with the lhe pros. have the lhe pros play more lhe (except tzen who is already there a lot ). scheduled hours (i think cake does this) where the lhe pros are always on at their certain stakes, and advertise it.

consider altering the current lobby setup of one ring table running at each stake and then 10 people sitting hu at their own ring table. could consider some casino/live poker type things here. one ring game going? okay, one extra table will be open. sit at that or don't sit the stake. want to play stake X? okay, get on the waiting list, and once it reaches however many people a new table will open.

extra VPPs for the third and fourth players at a fr table, and the third at a sh table. i'm sure that kind of thing has already been proposed.

royal flush bonuses. hourly/daily/weekly high hand bonuses. other rotating promos like today's hand is quad 8s. anyone making quad 8s gets X back. a bad beat jackpot (funded by stars, not by extra rake).

i think if people could at any time redeem their VPP/FPP for cash (at whatever rate is determined based on their nova level), that would mean more cash back into the games, as opposed to having to get to 50k or 100k pts or whatever before you can unlock the bonus. let someone who's 17% there get 17% of their cash right away.

active blocking of PTR, if possible (a big can of worms, obv). smaller LHE timebanks? with tableninja autotimebanking every hand, watching or playing at a lhe table full of multitablers can be groaningly slow and probably turns off some recreational players.

custom/prize avatars. any new player who rakes $50 or something gets a cookie basket sent in the mail, unprompted. i'm running out of ideas right now but the overall point is more protection of fish, better marketing, more sizzle, etc. can anyone actually address the core issue which is that there is a lot of good information about LHE out there, thus the games continue to get tougher? unlikely, but i suppose it's possible. a mini-LHE renaissance could be promoted thru marketing and incentives though i think, if not at high stakes then at least renewing the midstakes and lower.

I agree with the idea of promoting to the fish, rather than the VPP grinder. LHE represents a big chance for Stars to make a lot of money off rake. Lets give the fish all sorts of reasons to deposit on Stars, and play LHE in particular.

VPP grinders, consider your 5% lost on points to be an investment to grow the game long term.

Agree with the promos for fish and I'd say we need more VIP pros(I think that too is an incentive for the fish to sit at those tables)
Basically we need lower rake and/or more people playing the game because from my pov the game is slowly dying

+1 for fish promos

+1 for more VIP pros

+1 for PTR blocking

dont know if is any reason for 8/16 and 20/40 USD tables, but maybe ok

also I have small sample and maybe dont have right numbers (I have HEM 1 with last update - 1.12.09) but rake on 5/10 5-6 max is still 2,57 BB/100 for me (2000 hands) and 2,66BB/100 on 3/6, so almost same as last year

and last thing - Im Pokerstrategy coach and in my coachings I played some micros 0,05/0,10 - 0,10/0,20 USD and games are definitely beateble

That's because rake structures haven't changed yet. It's the same as last year.

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Please send me some hands at these stakes! Without them i will not be able to analyse how the proposed rake structures will effect these games.

If you don't want to send me hands, you may wish to run the analysis yourself. If I don't get any data it's very hard for me to come up with rake proposals that take the microstakes in to account.

Thanks for all the feedback so far. Sorry if this reply is a bit choppy, I have family visiting from now until the IOM so my time is going to be tight replying. But I will be reading everything posted here in this thread so lets keep the conversation going!

Are you suggesting more stringent enforcement of the new rules, or does another solution need to be found?

I expect them to reply that it is the best rake structure in the industry coupled with one of the best rewards programs.

This needs to be countered that a comparison doesn't work because LHE is dead pretty much on all others sites. It hangs on at PokerStars but it is in decline and largely propped up by high-VIP chasers that play otherwise unprofitably.

So far they appear to be open and candid with such data if we request it (we will be under NDA for all this but we can use the information to come to better decisions at hte meeting).

By my calculations, the rake structures proposed will lead to a slight reduction in rake at all stakes from 25c/50c upwards. It is down at full tables, slight increases at 5-handed, big increases at 3-handed. But, given teh samples I have, it's overall a decrease, even at the $1/ and $2/4 that we thought would be "pain points" for the proposed structure.

The analysis could of course be faulty. I expect to see similar data from PokerStars and I can verify my own analysis.

Does an increase in VPP multplier have support in the community, or are rake reductions or promotions to attract more recreational players more important?

[this question much just come down to a "are you SNE or not" but i hope we can discuss the merits of each objectively.]

Noted.


There seems a common theme in this thread that lots of LHE players aren't looking *specifically* for more rewards or rake cuts or VPP multipliers, but are open to broader changes or promotions that will re-invigorate our game and improve the lobbies.

I will say that during this meeting I doubt we will get a firm commitment to changes that involve software development etc and conversation will likely focus more around rake structures etc.

With that said I will definately take the ideas proposed here with me and I think PokerStars will be very open to these broad ideas that improve the games for everyone AND will improve PokerStars' bottom line.

One idea that I've always wanted to see a site implement is this idea of a "global waitlist," similar to what BBB mentions above. I brought it up in a meeting with the IOM group a couple of days back and there was a lot of support for it. Fittingly Phil Galfond also suggested this in his "lets make some changes" blog post that's being discussed in NVG. Here's my post on it.

Basically the idea is that players join a global waitlist to join new tables, and when a certain number are on it (say 4-6 to start an new 6-max table), players are sat randomly together and a new game starts. Everyone has the option to quit the game. It would be a constantly revolving global list to start new games. It could work alongside, or instead of, traditional waitlists, "fast seating". I see it as having the benefits of Rush Poker (quick to start games, no bumhunting/buttoning/lobbyskills/sitting out skills) but not the downside (removing some of hte skill and fun of the game, making more like an arcade/casino game).

I don't know if much of the meeting will focus around these 'bigger' ideas and we know PokerStars is not fast in implementing software changes. But I think it's something like that which is needed for Fixed Limit to revive the game.

Btw, PokerStars' take on Rush Poker is expected end of the month, and I expect us to be discussing that during the meeting. The community may wish discuss their thoughts on how they see LHE Rush and how it may change the game.

lol, im idiot i ll send you a PM

Rake needs to be lower at micros, it's doubtful that they will though as those are the stakes most players are ignorant about rake. Vast majority of regs even at 0.50/1.00 are breakeven or slight winners (and it makes most of them very angry people), over 650k hands at those stakes I've won at 1.3BB/100 and paid 3 times that in rake, that can't be healthy. Especially when someone can play hours in a tournament for $1 rake.

Please no rush for limit! It's dangerous to fragment the player base with such a small pool.

yes, im fairly certain that a stringent enforcement is all that is needed. It shouldnt require too much use of resources for PS and i think the upside could be pretty big. So hugely +EV investment for all parties concerned imo


Thats what I would expekt as well. But if there really are no better reasoning behind the rake structure other than it being "better than competitors", then that is a huge concern imo. And it should almost definition be room for improvement. Whether that is lower rake or a re-structuring of rake i dont know ofc.
But if they have done some simulations or calculations on how changing the rake at different levels f.ex would then alter the poker ecosystem, then that would be very interesting info. Cause it would be something that could in the future spawn more meaningful discussions than the majority of those we have across forums today. We could then work together for improvements rather than always hearing the one-sided "rake should be lowered" argument that doesnt really help anyone.

The answer to this will probably depend on whether u play 10/20+ or 5/T and lower. Personally i feel promotions to attract recreational players are way way more important than adding 10% to the VPP value or whatever. Which is something that is unlikely to change much if anything.
Basically new players who deposit are the driving force that makes everything possible. Without them all games would collapse, but ofc PS are very aware of this.



definitely agree with this!

In addition they need to use the new 'average time to act' stat to restrict slow multitabling.

That's the single best biggest easy thing they could do imo. Make the games more fun for casual players, more rake for pokerstars per table hour, increased winnings for good players per table hour and make SNE harder for those multi-tabling slowly with no consideration for anyone else.

Is no-one else concerned that the proposed rake increase for 5 players will cause 6-max tables to break up faster?

why would it? the fish don't care about the rake, and tables already instabreakup exactly when the fish leaves, and I don't expect that to change

currently games dont always break up immediately if the worst player leaves. A so so player or two and sometimes the other 3 or 4 will wait to see who arrives. But if 1 or 2 routinely hit the sit out next blind button because they dont like the 5 player rake then the tables will break up far more often.

I've love to see Stars do more to keep fish on the tables. Other than targeted reload bonuses, what sort of promos that specifically target fish are there?

After watching the podcast Steve mentioned that one of the reasons for the change to WC and the reductions in the VIP system was due to the poker economy of last year but they are willing to compensate on the rake structure.

I believe there should be a rake decrease for the lower staked limit games and if necessary compensate this to some degree by increasing the rake in the high stakes games where the rake difference is simply way too vast. An incremental rake decrease for the very lowest limits which gets lower as the limits get higher.

On another point Stars introduced benefits for NL10 players and below last year by increasing the vpp multipliers, from a limit standpoint it would be good to see something for us limit guys.

Stars have made a point about fairness in the game hence the WC method, the 5.5 v 6.0 multiplier for shorthanded v's full ring is frankly unfair and should be addressed. I don't mind it it's to 6 for everyone or to 5.75 v 5.75 but it should be addressed.