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***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread ***** ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

03-13-2009 , 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oink
Apa, dont you have a thread to troll where you need to change the argument into a direction of optimal style and which books should be read??
I have never discussed any books at all in this thread. But I guess that you're referring to the free showdown thread where I a bit ironically called Stox book for obsolete..

I´m glad that you have finally got your tongue out of Stox ass.
It was hilarious to see that you said to him that you found his book supreme when you in this very thread have said that having his showdown stats are a recipe for disaster.
And how can his book be supreme when he plays a preflop game which just is proper if (and I quote) "you suck postflop"?

I find his book supreme but I don´t go around saying things that contradict myself.

Quote:
Can 2p2 be programmed to insta post Abso's last screenshot the next time someone says 33/23 is suboptimal at small stakes?
This post from you clearly gives me the impression that Abso's posted results are proof for that playing 33/23 are not suboptimal at smallstakes.
But at the same time you make it very clear that if someone would post good TAG results at midstakes that will not be proof of that TAG play are not suboptimal at midstakes.
So are results in anyway proof of anything? I don't think so. But you are thinking it is when it fits your point of view and you don´t think so when it doesn't fit your view.

Quote:
And when I put myself to sleep tonight I´m going to think about how the 28/20 2 BB/100 winner at 10/20 are going to manage to drop 0.5 BB/hand.
This was something directed to Leader. He is totally convinced that a 24/18 style is unprofitable at midstakes (I even think that he thinks it is at low limits.)And he backs it up with the fact that he doesn´t have any 24/18 winners in his database. Of course he hasn't. Because every good player knows that if they play good postflop poker then they can loosen up and win more.And those who plays 24/18 almost always plays too tight postflop and don't play their opponents ranges and they don't bluff as much as they should do when they have the advantage of being viewed at as tight. But that doesn´t necessarily makes 24/18 an unprofitable style for a good player.
Just suboptimal.

I know that there are a couple of 28/20 2 BB/100 winners at 10/20 out there. So I ask you: Do you think those players becomes losers by cutting 4 hands every hundred hands they play? And which hands are they managing to drop those 2 BB:s from. Or is it the overall metagame effect that makes your winrate drop 2BB/100 when you ditch 4 hands preflop but play exactly the same style postflop?

So now you have the chance to argue why you think they become losers and why you thought my example was a sign of no brains.
Feel free to use arguments this time instead of just establishing that I'm troll.

Last edited by Apanage; 03-13-2009 at 02:18 PM.
03-13-2009 , 08:37 PM
Its really annoying that you keep semi quoting me for saying things that i havent said and that you keep posting replies where you make it seem I am of a certain opinion that I am indeed not



Quote:
I´m glad that you have finally got your tongue out of Stox ass.
It was hilarious to see that you said to him that you found his book supreme when you in this very thread have said that having his showdown stats are a recipe for disaster.
yes I kiss stox ass...

Could you plz quote where I said that? I dont know what showdown stats you get from
playing that way and I dont see how you could ever know either because showdown stats depends not only on your own style but on the villains you play. If i ever posted something to the like of "if you read Stox book and get 37/55 stats" i was wrong. The stats you get depend on the players you play. But again, quote me plz?

Stox book is the supreme book out there because it is by and far the best book on online 6max lhe that i know of. The fact that I believe it is supreme dont mean I agree with every single proposition that is made in it. I disagree with preflop play and his love for the free showdown raise among some other things. Overall it is the only book I have read that makes the reader a better hand reader and presents a preflop strategy based on (loose) empirics and math. It is the supreme book out there right now.

Supreme doesnt mean flawless. Why would you think that?


Quote:
This post from you clearly gives me the impression that Abso's posted results are proof for that playing 33/23 are not suboptimal at smallstakes.
How is it my problem or my responsibility what impressions you get? It wasnt what i wrote and it wasnt what I meant. So again plz stop reading things into what I write that isnt there and then subsequently presenting it as my ideas are what you thought they were?


Quote:
Of course he hasn't. Because every good player knows that if they play good postflop poker then they can loosen up and win more.And those who plays 24/18 almost always plays too tight postflop and don't play their opponents ranges and they don't bluff as much as they should do when they have the advantage of being viewed at as tight. But that doesn´t necessarily makes 24/18 an unprofitable style for a good player.
Just suboptimal.
I agree on this and I am fairly confident I have presented that view in this and other threads.


Quote:
I know that there are a couple of 28/20 2 BB/100 winners at 10/20 out there. So I ask you: Do you think those players becomes losers by cutting 4 hands every hundred hands they play? And which hands are they managing to drop those 2 BB:s from. Or is it the overall metagame effect that makes your winrate drop 2BB/100 when you ditch 4 hands preflop but play exactly the same style postflop?
See above. Plenty of good 28/20 players in my games altho they have become fewer. Which has actually made me tighten up. As my games play these days having a vpip of 35 certainly seems like pushing it. So few or basically none 24/17 left and a lot of the 27/20 guys have turned into 32/22 guys who really punish you when you open light. Optimal preflop play depends so much on the table conditions and I have said multiple times that its my belief that it can be anything from 27/20 to 55/30 or even looser. I have also said multiple times that aiming for ceratin stats is dumb as you should aim at knowing when to tighten up and when to loosen up. So this whole debate is really just not worth anything and i dont see why you are so gung ho on debating it?

Quote:
Feel free to use arguments this time instead of just establishing that I'm troll.
Not gonna argue with you again because as said some times now I dont particular enjoy the fact that you take things out of context and read into posts what isnt there. You seem very obsessive and I certainly shouldnt have been responding in such a childish manner. But I am not gonna argue with you on this again because its not going anywhere. Id be very surprised if you dont post a really long reply to this using your standard line of annoying trolling.

I just cant be bothered with you anymore Apanage. I apologize for the childish tantrums but I do think you are a annoying troll so this will be the last time I respond to any of your requests.
03-15-2009 , 12:25 PM
I wouldn't like to disappoint you OINK so here comes another troll post.In fact the longest ever.

Put the straitjacket on, here we go


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oink
Maka

- show down more. As LEader says your HUHU wtsd is ridiculous. 35-36% for 5-6 handed play at midstakes is also a recipe for disaster.
In Stox book the high stakes player has a WSD of 35% which means that his play is a recipe for disaster.
It is a fair assumption to imagine that he has winded up having those showdown stats playing the way the book preach.
And I doubt that I have in anyway deviated from what you meant in this quote. It is pretty clear that you talk about midstakes in general. Not games with a specific lineup or any specific games.
But then again maybe high stakes poker plays differently from midstakes.


Quote:
Supreme doesnt mean flawless. Why would you think that?
Maybe language difficulties. But I have always thought that supreme meant something like extraordinary or remarkable.
You have expressed the view that if you don´t have a VPIP of over 30% (filtered for 6-handed)you're either playing suboptimal or suck at postflop poker(even if it comes with a "in my games" disclaimer).That put together with the hate for FSDRaises and the general view of what is a disastrous showdown stat means that using the word supreme is a bit of a**licking imo.
And even If you used supreme with the meaning the best of all books it didn't really sound good.

It is too bad that you won't answer what you really meant with:

Quote:
Can 2p2 be programmed to insta post Abso's last screenshot the next time someone says 33/23 is suboptimal at small stakes?
But at least you didn´t mean it as proof of 33/23 not being suboptimal.What purpose an instapost of abso's screenshot when anyone says that 33/23 is suboptimal would fill remains a riddle however.

Quote:
So this whole debate is really just not worth anything and i dont see why you are so gung ho on debating it?
I already knew that you agreed with me regarding the 24/18 discussion. I think I know what the hilarious part was in my example but I can say that the figures I presented hadn't any aspirations on being exact. If it is 4 hands or 3.8 hands or whatever doesn´t matter for the principal discussion

The Gungho I have about stats is whenever someone is posting stats then Leader and others comes with statements like 24/18 is an unprofitable style or things like:

Quote:
maka2184,

You don't SD nearly enough. I mean 36 WtSD HUHU is almost buddy list worthy. You need to be showing down 40%+ 5-6 hand esp at 10/20+.
I'm just glad that the high stakes player who won $700 000 with a WSD of 35 won the money before he found out that he had the wrong strategy.

And I can´t tell you how fed up I am with the common advice to small stakes posters to fix their awful winrate by defending their blinds more.
yeah like that is the problem when a number of players can show extremely high winrates folding their blinds as much as they who have awful winrates.

To me it is clear that the 2+2 community is way too narrowminded when it comes to stats without having anything to back it up with.
You are constantly preaching that stats "depends"which honors you. But now and then even you come up with posts that says otherwise and sometimes in an arrogant manner like in the post that started this quarrel:

Quote:
If you are one of those posters stop posting in stat threads regarding styles as if you know whats going on.

I'm finished now. I promise you that I'm never going to post anything regarding general stats again.
I do think that you're decent guy that sometimes can´t help behaving badly.
I don't mind if you behave badly against me. I can take it. And who knows maybe I deserve it.
But you apparently also behave badly against people that don't deserve it so it would be great if you could stop do it.
And I accept the appologize even if I understand that it isn't that seriously meant since the word troll is mentioned twice.

Last edited by Apanage; 03-15-2009 at 12:37 PM.
03-15-2009 , 02:21 PM
Again, you are just taking various "facts" that you find, add some other things you take out of context and then end up at your own conclusions.

Sorry, but I cant be bothered Apa.
03-15-2009 , 09:35 PM
Apanage,

At the very best I'd rate you as an average 3/6 player(small sample but whatever)...what makes you think you can argue with a mid stakes legend like Oink.

You realize that without rake back you'd be a total broke ass? Yet you still talk **** to the likes of Stox and Oink?


03-16-2009 , 11:59 AM
Let's settle this like men. Here's what we'll do. Both of you will have access to my db for my latest 10k hands at small stakes 6m LHE. You will each have one day to use whatever filters you want to analyze my strengths and weaknesses. Then you will have one additional day to prepare a thorough report detailing your findings with suggestions for improvement.

I will spend a day studying your reports and then come back and deliver my final judgment as to the winner.

Do we have a deal?
03-19-2009 , 02:04 PM
I took long break from limited holdem and now Im back. Started from 2/4 and 3/6. Have lost about 1.6bb/100 since I started and I suck so bad that I dont even know why I lose

Should post hands I know, but dont really know which hands I should post, cause have no idea where I go wrong. Ive been winner in 10/20 about year ago (70k+ hands ~1bb/100) and as far as I know I play quite the same since then. Maybe bit tighter since rake is so bad at 2/4-3/6. Not sure is it it good/bad thing, should I adjust more.

But, heres some graphs. Tell me why Im so terrible. What I do wrong?





03-19-2009 , 02:30 PM
hi, wrong thread but w/ever:

when i saw this pic i thought: wtf, those are some nicelooking stats(besides overall tightnesS)



then i saw this pic and insta-new whats ur problemo(besides the pic-posting stuff)



u dont adjust your opening ranges by position, you dont steal enough and you grotesquely underdefend your blinds. also you're too tight overall.

also your fold 3bet is 40% when it should be around 0
03-19-2009 , 03:54 PM
franx1,

While certain people likely disagree (see above*), your tightness pf is the cause of your losses. Try loosening up to 30/20'ish.

*not sg's post fyi
03-19-2009 , 04:11 PM



A bit of a brag but maybe it will help you frankx.
BTW i realize i'm significantly more agg on the SB (too much?). I think "we" (understand average mid stake players) are too aggro and FoF in the sb in BVB situations.
I see decent players raise first in the SB with like 90% range, is it standard?
03-19-2009 , 04:48 PM
Wow, after reading Apanage's post... I can't help but conclude that Apanage sucks at LHE.

It's hilarious that he calls Oink narrowminded when all he has to back himself up with is Stox's book, which is now kind of outdated, since most everyone in the mid-high games has read it at this point.

All I know is, guys who play really really well are extremely difficult to bluff. Guys who show down 35%ish generally suck and are extremely easy to run over. Guys who fold their BB to steal 45%ish get their blinds stolen relentlessly, and aware players are adjusting both their opening ranges and 3betting ranges (when an aware player opens) for these nitty BBs.

However you play, you need to make sure the whole of your style fits together. People have put together large winning samples with all different stats, and people have posted large losing samples with the same ranges of stats. Getting caught up in 27/20 vs 33/23 is nothing but a waste of time. Being so closed-minded as to think any particular VIPIP/PFR #s are "optimal" is unbelievably dumb. If you have 2 nits to your left and 3 bad, passive, foldy guys to your right, you should probably be playing near 40/33. If you have spewy aggrotards who are incaable of adjusting to your left, you're gonna want to tighten up.


But I promise you're gonna want to start showing down close to or above 40% if you want to survive 30+.
03-19-2009 , 04:50 PM
im running well this month, so ill brag. what do you think about opening 60%+ on the button
i also like to make sure absolution is in my game


03-19-2009 , 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by normalcy
i also like to make sure absolution is in my game
?
03-19-2009 , 04:59 PM
i was kidding. i just happened to flop good against you this past week. i actually don't like you in my games b/c you don't fold your blinds to my steals enough and when you've been on my right, you've stolen all of my fish with iso raises.
03-19-2009 , 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by normalcy
i was kidding. i just happened to flop good against you this past week. i actually don't like you in my games b/c you don't fold your blinds to my steals enough and when you've been on my right, you've stolen all of my fish with iso raises.
I don't even know which one you are, but I probably think you suck.

Last edited by Absolution; 03-19-2009 at 05:34 PM.
03-19-2009 , 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolution
I don't even know which one you are (born2winit?), but I probably think you suck.
you probably do think i suck. but im a different/better player now than the dude in your db
03-19-2009 , 05:14 PM
what is a good wtsd for 2/4-3/6? I am currently 39.8, this month 42%
03-19-2009 , 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by normalcy
you probably do think i suck. but im a different/better player now than the dude in your db
I think everybody sucks at 1/2.
03-19-2009 , 05:22 PM
i imagine that makes tableselection supereasy
03-19-2009 , 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skillgambler
i imagine that makes tableselection supereasy
I only play at tables where I win, therefore I never lose.
03-19-2009 , 05:35 PM
Well okay. Which hands should be played from button/co if I try to play 30/20? Guess my UTG/MP stats are quite ok, right?

CO Axs, A6o+, K8o+, K5s+, Q9o+, Q8s+, J7s+, J9o+ 65s+, 89o+, 22+
BTN Ax, Kxs, K5o+, Q7o+, Q5s+, J6s+, J8o+, 54s+, 79o+, 67o+, 22+

Is that about right? Defending blinds is whole other thing...
03-19-2009 , 05:46 PM
Loosening up may or may not be a solution

Its too easy too conclude that because you are pretty tight you should just loosen up and then start winning.

If you are not good enough to beat small stakes playing old school TAG its imo quite unlikely you are good enough to beat them playing 30/20.

The most likely reasons for your bad run are

- You play bad
- Bad run
- Bad run induced some tiliting
- You play bad
- You table and seat select bad
- You play bad
- You play too many tables
- You play bad
- You are too tight
- You play bad
03-19-2009 , 05:49 PM
Another way to put it:

If you dont know preflop its unlikely you know postflop well enough to open 65o or K3o OTB or defending Q4o/64s vs a CO steal.

All that said, your stats indicate pretty big leaks PF, so you need to fix that one way or the other. Just dont expect it to fix all your problems overnight. People who are bad preflop are rarely good postflop
03-19-2009 , 05:52 PM
One more thing

Running at 40/57 at showdown and still losing is freaking mindboggling
03-19-2009 , 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oink
One more thing

Running at 40/57 at showdown and still losing is freaking mindboggling
It's not really mindboggling. For example if you only played AA, it would be what? 95/80 or something.

      
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