***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

[V4P]

If I only saw your blind defense stats, I'd think you were a 40/30.

Also, your ATSB seems low, same goes for AF given your PF stats

[maverickai]

Originally Posted by BK1248

32% wtsd seems very low. If i was playing vs you i would c/r every low flop in steal pots and fire the turn and reevaluate on the river and also try and steal ur blind everytime. Do you ever feel anyone trying these tactics vs you at ur level?

gl

True, and I admit that is my problem. I have been reviewing my play on where to SD more and I believe big part of the percentage comes from showing down during blind wars, as A-hi and low pairs have to be showed down more often.

I reckon a WTSD figure like 35% would be much better. but how come some players can reach 40%? I seriously can't figure out how to reach that level, or issit because of the stakes you're playing? I'm still at 0.25/0.50. Obviously part of the reason has got to be the VPIP. The more hands you play, the more flops will be favourable and you get to showdown.

[WillyT]

Originally Posted by Tryptamean

this is mostly play from 08 in my PT3 db... nothing too surprising ... i believe that these stats are considered pretty standard lagtag... limites range from 15/30-200/400, with the bulk at 30/60-50/100. filtered 5-6 handed.

as I moved up I've become a little bit looser and it seems like WTSD and W$WSF have gone up slightly at higher stakes, while W$SD has gone down slightly... in any case, these stats are not exactly representative of my current game, for better or worse idk

What are your flop k/r and k/c percentages out of the BB?

[Apanage]

Have begun exporting old PT hands to HEM. Stumbled over my first 3 months of poker back in late 2005. Had only read one fullring poker book and didn´t have a clue about playing shorthanded poker.Thought that 2+2 was 4.

Interesting BB stats though. Look at my VP$IP from BB.It is almost like the software had deactivated the call button when someone had raised at the table.
Those of you who think that you get overrun at low limit stakes if you fold BB too much
can take a look at the BigBet/hand results from BB.

[VUcats]

Were you just running unbelievably hot over your 6max sample? I can't believe that you were a winning player with 27/11 stats, ESPECIALLY if you were folding 70+% from the BB. Where did all of your calls come from?

[Oink]

VUcats

There is also the chance that Apanage played some games that were a lot softer than the ones we/he plays today.

That said its a testament to why you cant just try and get your fold BB to steal down just to get it down. Apanage most likely played in games where his BB didnt get raised that often compared to the games that posters here play. This would imply that a high fold BB to steal percentage is fine because not only is it not a big issue when your BB is only attempted stealed once every 8 orbits or whatever but the ranges he faced where also quite tight.

Thats off course very speculative because obviously I have no idea how the games Apanage found in early 05 played but I dont think its a stretch to assume they were quite soft - to be fair it looks like Apanage played some pretty lousy PF poker which he also alludes to himself and yet he found a way to squeeze out 1BB/100 indicating soft games.

But this is certainly a possible explanation for his nice BB winrate.

[Apanage]

Originally Posted by VUcats

Were you just running unbelievably hot over your 6max sample? I can't believe that you were a winning player with 27/11 stats, ESPECIALLY if you were folding 70+% from the BB. Where did all of your calls come from?

Folding BB 70% or 40% does for some people not determine if they are a winning player or not.And that goes for every level of stakes.
It is not like a 1.5 BB/100 winner at 15/30 with a FBB steal of 40% suddenly becomes a loser because he FBB to steal 70% instead. Folding BB has not got that impact. But it sure as hell is more optimal to fold BB 40% than 70%
and I think that the optimal ranges that Oink gave is spot on.

If people just would stop saying that you can´t win with this or that folding to steal stats or steal stats.
You can probably win if you fold your SB and BB 90% at limits under 3/6.

Below is my first 6 months of mostly 5-handed 3/6 play back in 2006:
If I posted that without winrate and wanted feedback we all know what the answers would be:

"Hey dude you can´t ever expect to win at shorthanded holdem because you fold your blind to steal too much".

Nowadays I play 31/22 5-handed and FBB to steal 45% and I suck from BB so much that it is unbelievable. Back then I was the king from BB.Or has anywhere else played 122K hands with -0.10 BB/hand from BB?

Shorthanded limit is much more complex than to call it just a blind battle.
And even if blind stealing and defending is an important part of the lower limit game it has not the impact on winrates that you guys think it has

[V4P]

Originally Posted by Apanage

Shorthanded limit is much more complex than to call it just a blind battle.
And even if blind stealing and defending is an important part of the lower limit game it has not the impact on winrates that you guys think it has

Not sure I agree with this. In today's games, a good blind game really separates the men from the boys

[Apanage]

Originally Posted by V4P

Not sure I agree with this. In today's games, a good blind game really separates the men from the boys

Well I would agree if you table select badly. But I almost always have a loose passive in 1 of the 2 seats to my right.
So how many times do you encounter a steal situation during the 18/100 times you have BB. Let´s say it is 7 if you have table selected good.
If you fold 40% instead of 60% that means that you play 1.4/100 more hands
defending looser.
Those 1.4 hands is taken from the interval 40-60% best limit holecards which means they are marginal hands.
How much BB/100 can you win with those 1.4 hands? Being optimistic I would say 0.4 BB/100 which has a certain impact on your winrate, but remember that to get those 0.4 BB/100 you have to play good poker and if you play those extra hands badly it can cost you money instead.
So a mediocre player isn´t certain to get a better winrate just by defending those extra hands.

EDIT:
The actual figures is actually proving my point even more. In 5-6 handed games I encounter a steal only 5.3 times of 100 hands, according to my HEM stats for 3/6 and 5/10.

[Oink]

It is not like a 1.5 BB/100 winner at 15/30 with a FBB steal of 40% suddenly becomes a loser because he FBB to steal 70% instead.

To be honest I think its close.

He might be able to squeeze out some profit but I wouldnt be surprised if he would be a small loser either.

Edit. Assuming he is similarly tight in the SB and up front.


But I think you are right about the focus on blind battles. In a small stakes game like 0.5/1 or whatever its not what is most important because there is so much limping going on that you just dont play that many HU pots.

But whoever has ambitions on making it past, I dunno, 3/6 or 2/4 needs to realize that at most big sites like ipoker/party/stars/ftp you will find a lot of TAGs and LAGTAGs and already at that level will the amount of HU pots have increased substantially. Even at relatively small stakes the games have gotten so much tighter within the past two years that HU blind play is very important. Even if you table select well at 15/30 I'd say that about half or two thirds of the pots you play are HU pots. And of those who arent HU a lot will become so on the flop or turn.

If you want succes in this game as in making lots of money and not just grind rb at 1/2 you will eventually need to get your fold (SB) BB to steal below (80) 50 and preferably below (75) 40 or even (70) 35. And while its most likely not gonna be +EV to do so at 0.5/1 or 1/2 you will make life easier on yourself later on if you get used to all the thin marginal spots with K2o on QT2 HU.

For me personally I didnt get relatively good at this game before I started loosening up. Simply because it put me in those marginal spots by playing A8o/KTo UTG, defending any Ax HU vs any raise, defending Q2o vs a BTN steal and so forth. I am sure it was -EV for me at first but the benefits I have reapt the last year or so after realizing how to play marginal hands OOP have been huge.

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by maverickai

True, and I admit that is my problem. I have been reviewing my play on where to SD more and I believe big part of the percentage comes from showing down during blind wars, as A-hi and low pairs have to be showed down more often.

I reckon a WTSD figure like 35% would be much better. but how come some players can reach 40%? I seriously can't figure out how to reach that level, or issit because of the stakes you're playing? I'm still at 0.25/0.50. Obviously part of the reason has got to be the VPIP. The more hands you play, the more flops will be favourable and you get to showdown.

You don't have to sd 40% in 25c/50c. You will see MUCH more multiway pots at that stake than at higher stakes, and high wtsd is generally a result of many heads up pots (in case of a good player that is). At higher stakes, vs more aggressive opponents with whom you see many flops heads up, you will be pushed around if you don't show down light. At the micros and small stakes 40% wtsd is probably suboptimal.

[Apanage]

Originally Posted by Oink

To be honest I think its close.

He might be able to squeeze out some profit but I wouldnt be surprised if he would be a small loser either.

Edit. Assuming he is similarly tight in the SB and up front.


But I think you are right about the focus on blind battles. In a small stakes game like 0.5/1 or whatever its not what is most important because there is so much limping going on that you just dont play that many HU pots.

But whoever has ambitions on making it past, I dunno, 3/6 or 2/4 needs to realize that at most big sites like ipoker/party/stars/ftp you will find a lot of TAGs and LAGTAGs and already at that level will the amount of HU pots have increased substantially. Even at relatively small stakes the games have gotten so much tighter within the past two years that HU blind play is very important. Even if you table select well at 15/30 I'd say that about half or two thirds of the pots you play are HU pots. And of those who arent HU a lot will become so on the flop or turn.

If you want succes in this game as in making lots of money and not just grind rb at 1/2 you will eventually need to get your fold (SB) BB to steal below (80) 50 and preferably below (75) 40 or even (70) 35. And while its most likely not gonna be +EV to do so at 0.5/1 or 1/2 you will make life easier on yourself later on if you get used to all the thin marginal spots with K2o on QT2 HU.

For me personally I didnt get relatively good at this game before I started loosening up. Simply because it put me in those marginal spots by playing A8o/KTo UTG, defending any Ax HU vs any raise, defending Q2o vs a BTN steal and so forth. I am sure it was -EV for me at first but the benefits I have reapt the last year or so after realizing how to play marginal hands OOP have been huge.

Oh we totally agree that it is good high stakes training to open up from BB and I do think it is a good thing if you know what you´re doing postflop.
But you´re wrong about that you can´t win money at 15/30 folding your BB 60%. If you just changed that part of your game in your 15/30 games you can´t seriosly say to me that the impact on your winrate would make you a loser.
I think the reason why players that are tight from the blinds generally are not suceeding playing higher stakes, is that they are too tight or too bad postflop also.
By the way.Can you filter out how many times you encounter steals 5-6 handed in 10/20 and 15/30 games.Just for curiosity.

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by Oink

And while its most likely not gonna be +EV to do so at 0.5/1 or 1/2 you will make life easier on yourself later on if you get used to all the thin marginal spots with K2o on QT2 HU.

For me personally I didnt get relatively good at this game before I started loosening up. Simply because it put me in those marginal spots by playing A8o/KTo UTG, defending any Ax HU vs any raise, defending Q2o vs a BTN steal and so forth. I am sure it was -EV for me at first but the benefits I have reapt the last year or so after realizing how to play marginal hands OOP have been huge.

How do you start getting better at these spots? I mean apart from putting yourself into them? Doing the math? Lots of stoving? What approach do you recommend for improving in these situations? If you had to give homework assignments for a student trying to learn this part of the game, what kind of exercises would you give him?

[Oink]

Apanage

well 60 isnt 70 and yes if thats all he changes and doesnt change how loose he is EP and how loose he defends his blinds vs non steal raises and how loose he calls in the blinds vs a raise and a coldcall. Then yes I agree that in itself going from 40 to 60 or 70 wont make him a loser. But going from a 30/20/45/75/40 1.5/100 winner to 23/19/38/70/90 most likely will.



I have PT2. I am fairly sure I cant filter. So the "half to two/thirds" ratio of HU pots was pretty much taken out my ass based on experience.

[Oink]

Daiquiri


Well experience is the primary thing. The more you play marginal hands the more comfortable you get.

Another thing is to think about poker when not playing. Posting and debating here and at other forums and watching videos.

Debating with other good players at IM or MSN or whatever is also very beneficial.

And then there is off course math. I have quite a few spreadsheets lying around. So I have apretty good idea when to peel with A7o on QT4 flop and when not to. Or when to peel A5s on J76 and when not to. The problem is with such math that you cant do it without making some basic assumptions. But then thinking about how changes to the assumptions affect results will still make the math interesting and usefull - despite being only a partial analysis.