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Old 10-25-2008, 02:18 AM   #1
GiantBuddha
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***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place for people to post and discuss stats. Since so many stat posts end up with the same advice (steal more, showdown more, defend more), perhaps it will be useful to have all of that contained in one thread. If not, I'm sure the moderators can lock it.

Anyway, people often discuss what "optimal" play looks like. While a lot can certainly be gained from such discussion, finding what works for you under your game conditions is probably the best place to start. It's easy to forget that a wide variety of styles can be profitable. To that end I've dragged up a sample of my first 50k or so hands at Stars $3/6, which was basically the beginning of my 6max career. Notice that I was a total nit. But a profitable nit. Next to that are the FTP $5/10 hands I have on this computer. Different style (still a little nitty), and still profitable. It's impossible to tell whether it's actually more profitable or not since the sample sizes are a little pathetic. But it's pretty safe to say that a competent player can win with 23/17 or 30/21 preflop stats. So it shouldn't be such a stretch that 21/15 or 35/25 can be profitable for certain players under the right game conditions.

Filtered for 5 and 6 handed:


Now that some people are using HEM and some people are using PT2 or PT3, it's important we realize that not all of the stats are the same in both. Here are a few hands from September, filtered exactly the same on HEM (top) and PT3 (bottom). Notice that 3bet, 4bet, WWSF, W$SD, ATSB, and particularly FBBTS are all different:



Anyway, I've got loads to say on this stuff, but I have to wake up early, so I'll add more later. Don't worry, I'll post some samples that look like crap soon enough.
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:27 AM   #2
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

First!!
Comments, guys?

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Old 10-25-2008, 03:30 AM   #3
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

you're running horribly and still winning, good job!
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:45 AM   #4
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

official SSSHLHE brag thread you say?
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:26 AM   #5
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericishungry View Post
you're running horribly and still winning, good job!
who's stats you're referring to, mate?
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Old 10-25-2008, 06:41 AM   #6
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

is 60% fold BB vs steal standard in 0.5/1?
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Old 10-25-2008, 06:54 AM   #7
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Does anyone know if PT3 or HEM have defined their stats anywhere, saying just what specificly is counted in their W$@SD stats etc?
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:17 AM   #8
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

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Originally Posted by _Koby_ View Post
is 60% fold BB vs steal standard in 0.5/1?
I know that my BB vs Steal is too high. ie, I have been folding too much. In fact, I've been amending my play to play more hands vs a steal.

This is a thread by MrWookie from Micros, about 6max Stats. This is an extract regarding your question:

Folded BB to steal: The decision about whether or not to defend your BB depends on a lot of factors, primarily what range of hands the theif is raising (does he even steal, or is this raise legitimate?), your read on the theif's postflop play, and how comfortable you are with defending. Having this be at 70% is not a bad place to start out your 6 max play, but getting it down to 60% or so would probably be better. You can play a lot of hands getting good pot odds, especially since the theif's hand range will be large. If the SB comes along and offers you 5:1, you can really open up. Some veterans have this stat below 50%, but, again, that's not recommended for players new to 6 max play who might be less familiar with defending their blinds. A lot of the difference between your VPIP and your PFR comes from defending your BB - you won't be limping much.
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:23 AM   #9
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

****
WHEN YOU POST STATS REMEMBER TO FILTER FOR SOME AMOUNT OF PLAYERS, SAY 5-6, 3-4 OR HU. EITHER THAT OR POST AVERAGE #PLAYERS.

WITHOUT SUCH INFO YOUR STATS ARE USELESS AND WILL JUST GIVE RISE TO BAD ANSWERS BASED ON LACK OF INFORMATION!!!!
****
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:32 AM   #10
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

About folding your blinds

This depends on

- How much your opponenets raise your blind
- How much rake you pay
- How big your postflop edge is on the opponents who raise your blind


In a midstakes environment say like 10/20 the rake will me medium to low and your opponents will largely consist of other semipros/pros with an ATSB between 38-50. Having a foldBB to steal above 50 in such a game is definetely a mistake. Most good players will be between 35 and 45 with some LAGs and LAGTAGs getting between 30 and 35.

In a high stakes environment where people steal about the same but the rake is insignificant I doubt being above 40 is good. But I have little experience with such games.

In a 0.5/1 game you dont find nearly as many villains who has an ATSB of 45. However the 45/12 villains with an ATSB of say 25 you have a significantly postflop edge on. The rake is obviously high. To be honest I dont know what a good fold BB to steal is in such a game but I doubt its 35 as much as I doubt its 70. Somewhere between 45 and 60 sounds about right to me.
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Old 10-25-2008, 10:27 AM   #11
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

terrific sample sizes.

also, this thread reads more like a brag thread than anything else.
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:22 AM   #12
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickai View Post
First!!
Comments, guys?


32% wtsd seems very low. If i was playing vs you i would c/r every low flop in steal pots and fire the turn and reevaluate on the river and also try and steal ur blind everytime. Do you ever feel anyone trying these tactics vs you at ur level?

gl
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:45 AM   #13
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickai View Post
who's stats you're referring to, mate?
Yours. Your W$@SD is ridiculously low for your WTSD so you're probably not running all that well. Then again sample is small, but it looks like you're doing pretty well.
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Old 10-25-2008, 06:06 PM   #14
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****






this is mostly play from 08 in my PT3 db... nothing too surprising ... i believe that these stats are considered pretty standard lagtag... limites range from 15/30-200/400, with the bulk at 30/60-50/100. filtered 5-6 handed.

as I moved up I've become a little bit looser and it seems like WTSD and W$WSF have gone up slightly at higher stakes, while W$SD has gone down slightly... in any case, these stats are not exactly representative of my current game, for better or worse idk
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Old 10-25-2008, 06:14 PM   #15
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

oh yeah, even though mot of that play is at mid-high limits... I think shooting for lagtag stats like this, and playing well overall, would serve one well at 5/10-10/20 for sure
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:03 PM   #16
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

If I only saw your blind defense stats, I'd think you were a 40/30.

Also, your ATSB seems low, same goes for AF given your PF stats
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Old 10-25-2008, 10:45 PM   #17
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Quote:
Originally Posted by BK1248 View Post
32% wtsd seems very low. If i was playing vs you i would c/r every low flop in steal pots and fire the turn and reevaluate on the river and also try and steal ur blind everytime. Do you ever feel anyone trying these tactics vs you at ur level?

gl
True, and I admit that is my problem. I have been reviewing my play on where to SD more and I believe big part of the percentage comes from showing down during blind wars, as A-hi and low pairs have to be showed down more often.

I reckon a WTSD figure like 35% would be much better. but how come some players can reach 40%? I seriously can't figure out how to reach that level, or issit because of the stakes you're playing? I'm still at 0.25/0.50. Obviously part of the reason has got to be the VPIP. The more hands you play, the more flops will be favourable and you get to showdown.
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Old 10-26-2008, 03:27 AM   #18
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryptamean View Post





this is mostly play from 08 in my PT3 db... nothing too surprising ... i believe that these stats are considered pretty standard lagtag... limites range from 15/30-200/400, with the bulk at 30/60-50/100. filtered 5-6 handed.

as I moved up I've become a little bit looser and it seems like WTSD and W$WSF have gone up slightly at higher stakes, while W$SD has gone down slightly... in any case, these stats are not exactly representative of my current game, for better or worse idk
What are your flop k/r and k/c percentages out of the BB?
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:10 AM   #19
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Have begun exporting old PT hands to HEM. Stumbled over my first 3 months of poker back in late 2005. Had only read one fullring poker book and didnīt have a clue about playing shorthanded poker.Thought that 2+2 was 4.

Interesting BB stats though. Look at my VP$IP from BB.It is almost like the software had deactivated the call button when someone had raised at the table.
Those of you who think that you get overrun at low limit stakes if you fold BB too much
can take a look at the BigBet/hand results from BB.



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Old 10-26-2008, 10:28 AM   #20
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Were you just running unbelievably hot over your 6max sample? I can't believe that you were a winning player with 27/11 stats, ESPECIALLY if you were folding 70+% from the BB. Where did all of your calls come from?
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Old 10-26-2008, 11:04 AM   #21
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

VUcats

There is also the chance that Apanage played some games that were a lot softer than the ones we/he plays today.

That said its a testament to why you cant just try and get your fold BB to steal down just to get it down. Apanage most likely played in games where his BB didnt get raised that often compared to the games that posters here play. This would imply that a high fold BB to steal percentage is fine because not only is it not a big issue when your BB is only attempted stealed once every 8 orbits or whatever but the ranges he faced where also quite tight.

Thats off course very speculative because obviously I have no idea how the games Apanage found in early 05 played but I dont think its a stretch to assume they were quite soft - to be fair it looks like Apanage played some pretty lousy PF poker which he also alludes to himself and yet he found a way to squeeze out 1BB/100 indicating soft games.

But this is certainly a possible explanation for his nice BB winrate.
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Old 10-26-2008, 11:26 AM   #22
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Quote:
Originally Posted by VUcats View Post
Were you just running unbelievably hot over your 6max sample? I can't believe that you were a winning player with 27/11 stats, ESPECIALLY if you were folding 70+% from the BB. Where did all of your calls come from?
Folding BB 70% or 40% does for some people not determine if they are a winning player or not.And that goes for every level of stakes.
It is not like a 1.5 BB/100 winner at 15/30 with a FBB steal of 40% suddenly becomes a loser because he FBB to steal 70% instead. Folding BB has not got that impact. But it sure as hell is more optimal to fold BB 40% than 70%
and I think that the optimal ranges that Oink gave is spot on.

If people just would stop saying that you canīt win with this or that folding to steal stats or steal stats.
You can probably win if you fold your SB and BB 90% at limits under 3/6.

Below is my first 6 months of mostly 5-handed 3/6 play back in 2006:
If I posted that without winrate and wanted feedback we all know what the answers would be:

"Hey dude you canīt ever expect to win at shorthanded holdem because you fold your blind to steal too much".

Nowadays I play 31/22 5-handed and FBB to steal 45% and I suck from BB so much that it is unbelievable. Back then I was the king from BB.Or has anywhere else played 122K hands with -0.10 BB/hand from BB?

Shorthanded limit is much more complex than to call it just a blind battle.
And even if blind stealing and defending is an important part of the lower limit game it has not the impact on winrates that you guys think it has





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Old 10-26-2008, 11:39 AM   #23
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apanage View Post
Shorthanded limit is much more complex than to call it just a blind battle.
And even if blind stealing and defending is an important part of the lower limit game it has not the impact on winrates that you guys think it has
Not sure I agree with this. In today's games, a good blind game really separates the men from the boys
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Old 10-26-2008, 11:58 AM   #24
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

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Not sure I agree with this. In today's games, a good blind game really separates the men from the boys
Well I would agree if you table select badly. But I almost always have a loose passive in 1 of the 2 seats to my right.
So how many times do you encounter a steal situation during the 18/100 times you have BB. Letīs say it is 7 if you have table selected good.
If you fold 40% instead of 60% that means that you play 1.4/100 more hands
defending looser.
Those 1.4 hands is taken from the interval 40-60% best limit holecards which means they are marginal hands.
How much BB/100 can you win with those 1.4 hands? Being optimistic I would say 0.4 BB/100 which has a certain impact on your winrate, but remember that to get those 0.4 BB/100 you have to play good poker and if you play those extra hands badly it can cost you money instead.
So a mediocre player isnīt certain to get a better winrate just by defending those extra hands.

EDIT:
The actual figures is actually proving my point even more. In 5-6 handed games I encounter a steal only 5.3 times of 100 hands, according to my HEM stats for 3/6 and 5/10.

Last edited by Apanage; 10-26-2008 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:08 PM   #25
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Re: ***** Official SSSHLHE Stats Thread *****

Quote:
It is not like a 1.5 BB/100 winner at 15/30 with a FBB steal of 40% suddenly becomes a loser because he FBB to steal 70% instead.
To be honest I think its close.

He might be able to squeeze out some profit but I wouldnt be surprised if he would be a small loser either.

Edit. Assuming he is similarly tight in the SB and up front.


But I think you are right about the focus on blind battles. In a small stakes game like 0.5/1 or whatever its not what is most important because there is so much limping going on that you just dont play that many HU pots.

But whoever has ambitions on making it past, I dunno, 3/6 or 2/4 needs to realize that at most big sites like ipoker/party/stars/ftp you will find a lot of TAGs and LAGTAGs and already at that level will the amount of HU pots have increased substantially. Even at relatively small stakes the games have gotten so much tighter within the past two years that HU blind play is very important. Even if you table select well at 15/30 I'd say that about half or two thirds of the pots you play are HU pots. And of those who arent HU a lot will become so on the flop or turn.

If you want succes in this game as in making lots of money and not just grind rb at 1/2 you will eventually need to get your fold (SB) BB to steal below (80) 50 and preferably below (75) 40 or even (70) 35. And while its most likely not gonna be +EV to do so at 0.5/1 or 1/2 you will make life easier on yourself later on if you get used to all the thin marginal spots with K2o on QT2 HU.

For me personally I didnt get relatively good at this game before I started loosening up. Simply because it put me in those marginal spots by playing A8o/KTo UTG, defending any Ax HU vs any raise, defending Q2o vs a BTN steal and so forth. I am sure it was -EV for me at first but the benefits I have reapt the last year or so after realizing how to play marginal hands OOP have been huge.

Last edited by Oink; 10-26-2008 at 12:13 PM.
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