I'm a 25/18 TAG at 1/2 6-max (Stars). I believe myself to be significantly better postflop than most other 25/18 TAGs at the same level.

I want to go LAGTAG.

But I don't have a lot of background knowledge of true LAGTAGness.

Here are some stats from the micros post (which also has some other discussion about this topic):

Hands: 34064
VPIP: 25.6
PFR: 18.0
Flop AF: 2.8
Turn AF: 2.4
River AF: 1.6
Total AF: 2.4

ASB: 37.7
WTSD: 35.7
W$@SD: 53.0
Fold SB to steal: 83.4
Fold BB to steal: 59.2
Fold BB to steal HU: 51.2

By position - VPIP/PFR:
Button: 29.8/25.3
1 off: 24.6/22.2
2 off: 18.2/17.1
3 off: 16.1/15.8
BB: 22.1/8.4
SB: 36.4/18.0

My understanding of LAGTAG is that preflop numbers can range from something like 30/25 up to 40/30 or so. But I have some concerns about the shift.

* Is it actually more profitable at this level? While I don't see myself being 3-bet too often, I do see a lot of coldcallers, who then take away from any position power gained through raising preflop and takes away your isolation abilities. Part of me believes that I will gain little in BB/100, but pick up a lot of variance, and that I should be waiting a until I reach 2/4 or 3/6, depending on how I view the table conditions. Is LAGTAG still effective when you're ending up getting coldcalled and isolations are failing?

* The current list of FAQ materials do not address LAGTAG play. Does anyone have any links? Other resources?

* Any thoughts or bits of advice on the transition from TAG to LAGTAG?

* Is anyone willing to post some stats for comparison?

Thanks.

imo, you have perfect stats

So when people talk about TAG and LAGTAG and so forth, it's generally about preflop stuff. Essentially, you're just playing more aggressively preflop. Sure that changes the image your opponents have of you and table dynamics...and there's such a thing as playing too many or too little hands, but it's just that. Some of it is preference, just like the games you choose to play (i.e. FR, 6-max, HU, how many tables you like to play simultaneously, etc., etc.).

I like to play more hands preflop myself but really it adds more variance than anything, like you say. Poker is mostly about post-flop and your stats look pretty decent to me. Poker is def. more interesting in those close borderline spots rather than just playing made hands, so you do get more of those...

Generally, you add certain plays/hands as you get more comfortable w/ the game (i.e. 3-betting KQo more often pre-flop, etc). If you don't like the added variance, then don't bother. Poker is swingy enough as it is, unless you like or are indifferent to the added roller coaster effect.

Post some hands in the HJ, CO and Button that you think pf may be questionable

any two suited otb

I doubt anyone wins at 1/2 with a 35/25 style. If you aren't planning to move up in stakes, no need to mess with anything. If you are, just try to incorporate it into your adjustments for the higher stakes. In my PT database I went from:

2/4 - 26/16
3/6 - 27/17
5/10 - 29/19
10/20 - 30/20
15/30 - 33/22

.. but I didn't really think about it as it was happening, it just sort of turned out that way. As long as you're analyzing your game and seeing what works and what doesn't for you, you don't need to "try" to be a TAG or LAGTAG, I think you just will be.

Best advice would be to watch some CR/DC/Stox videos and see it in action. Try to incorporate what you learn but remember that the style of play that may be best in a 30/60 game probably isn't going to do anything for you at the lower stakes since the play and rake impact is so different.

Ummmm... I almost always 3-bet KQo preflop. Is that unusual?

What accounts for the slow increase of VPIP and PFR as you increase in stakes? Is it related to the absence of open-limpers, which is allowing you to open-raise more often?

Aaron, most of the hands you will want to be adding will be on the button or in the CO. You'll isolate limpers with more marginal hands and if you get a chance to steal blinds, you'll add a few more hands.

Because of the high rake, it's not clear that adding more hands is going to do wonders for your winrate. On the other hand, it will make you a much better player as you have to deal with much more marginal spots. You won't be able to take the bet flop - bet turn line as often, because your hand won't always have value at a showdown.

If one or two players limp in and you have T8s on the button, raise it up! You have a hand that plays well both multiway and heads up with the betting lead. Use your knowledge of board textures to decide when you to bet the flop and when to take a free card. Hopefully, your overall aggressive play will have the weaker players out of their comfort zone and they will respond by playing worse (either calling down even lighter than they already do or spewing chips out of frustration).

LAGTAG is not about getting to a certain VPIP or PFR. It is about pushing thin edges when the opposition will allow. It emphasizes taking advantage of position to play hands which are even equity against your opponent's range or even are at a slight equity disadvantage, which will be made up for using position and superior decision making skills postflop. It also recognizes that if your opponents are playing a similar style, then you have to punish them by pushing back at them and defending your blinds appropriately. This aspect of LAGTAG is something you will experience more as you move up.

In short, LAGTAG works when you can really pinpoint your opponents' weaknesses and exploit them mercilessly. The better you know how to react to your opponents' actions, the more hands you can play for a profit. Does your opponent like to see flops and give up if an ace flops and he misses? Then adding a lot of non-ace hands to your range has a lot of value, as you often will have four additional 'outs' on the flop. Will he pay off light because he is afraid you are barrelling? Start building pots and value bet thin, while taking free cards when behind once you suspect he is committed to a showdown. Does he peel the flop with most of his range, but throw his hand away on the turn when he misses? Now you can raise a wide range preflop and often fire two barrels.

So don't think of LAGTAG as adding more hands. Think of it as getting a better command of your table. As you do that, you'll start to see spots where you can add hands.

* For most TAGs (myself included), it can be hard to start adding hands which are seen as marginally +EV, since they add a lot of variance and not much to the winrate. However, it is really important to overcome this psychological hurdle. As you move up, you will need to play this marginal spots for a couple of reasons: (1) your edge is narrower, so these small +EV spots are correspondingly more valuable, and (2) more players will be observant and if you don't add more hands, tough players will steal your blinds relentlessly and fail to give you action when you enter a pot with a raise.

This probably has some effect, but it is primarily because the impact of the rake decreases as the stakes increase and as players move up they acquire skills that allow them to play marginal hands more profitably.

sweetjazz -

Thanks for the long response.

I certainly don't view this as some sort of magic pill. But I do feel like my game might be missing a certain "higher gear" and I feel that there are edges that I'm simply seeing. Rake is a factor, but it's not something I think too deeply about at this time because I don't ever play in a (nearly) rake-free environment, so I don't have that secondary perspective.

See above: If I'm not playing the hands, then I won't have these situations. In other words, I'm not recognizing these preflop edges, so I'm passing on situations that other players might be raising.

This is interesting and something I haven't thought about.

I'll keep these points in mind.

In generic terms, that's pretty broad. Let's say I've got J7s in the CO. If it's folded to me, I'll pass if the blinds or the button are loose, but if I think they're likely to fold often it becomes a raise. But if there's a limper in front of me already, I would usually fold because I'm likely to end up in a 3-4 handed pot (blinds less likely to fold with the extra limper) and I don't think there's really an edge there anymore once that happens. Or could one (with enough skill) turn this into a spot where he has an edge? I don't really know.

SweetJazz already covered most with his usual excellent posting. So I will just post some random observations of mine and hope that can help you out

- Playing more hands may not be profitable at 1/2 but it will probably make you a better poker player. I think Schneids once said he didnt get good untill he started playing looser than most.


- Playing good LHE isnt about being a LAGTAG or TAG or LAG. Its about knowing when to play what style, which I think you know. The one fundamental difference I see between myself and other winning LAGTAGs and not so great players is the ability to adjust to game conditions. Judging from your posts here on 2p2 I would be surpsirsed if you play a rigid style PF but if I was to mention stuff that poor TAGs dont do enough it would be
- Not overlimping enough. Two bad players limp you have 96s, A5o, Q8o OTB with passive blinds. You have a +EV overlimp
- Not coldcalling enough, in particular in the SB. Bad player limps random player raises you have A5s, K8s, 86s, 22 in the SB and the BB is non maniac. You have a +EV coldcall
- Not calling 2 bets in the BB enough. Random player raises, bad player coldcalls, random player 3-bets you have 87s, 22, ATs, K9s, J9s in the BB. +EV coldcall.
- Not squeeze 3-betting enough out of SB or BB. TAG opens OTB, bad player coldcalls in SB you have A9o, K9s, JTs, A5s, 66 in the BB. 3-bet for value and to decrease your reverse implied folding equity.


- I have but one problem with your stats when you consider its a high rake game. Your ATSB should imo be above 40 even in this environment. The rake is higher than at 10/2+, true!. But you also get 3-bet a lot less and you get to play in position against poorer players a lot more. The rest of your stats looks fine to me - except of course that I also think your vpip is too low OTB.

Overall tho, as mentioned by BDK, people tend to get LAGTAG stats when they move up because they have to defend their blinds more and its folded more to them in late position and in the SB. I dont think you need to get your FSB to steal and FBB to steal down to 70 and 30 in a high rake game where people dont steal as much.

- If you insist on loosening up do as SJ mentions. Add more hands in late position. Isolate more, steal more, 3-bet more OTB.


Oh and btw I dont always 3-bet KQo. I often foldit in the HJ or in other positions vs a tight UTG or HJ open.

The major differences that took me from 2+2 Tag to LAGTAG involved my stealing and restealing ranges. When table conditions are right I'll try and sneak in some extra hands from early position, but for the most part they're the same.

Do yourself a favor and subscribe to a training site. I know you're really stubborn and exceptionally smart and you think you can figure everything out on your own, but theres a reason why everyone on this forum belongs to at least one of the sites, regardless of the stakes they play.

I think we've had enough evidence now to say that this is not the case. In my opinion, the "LAGTAG isn't optimal at small stakes" myth has been debunked. I think a good 35/25 would really crush small stakes.