I'll start by giving some stats (only 102 hands on villain):
Folded SB2Steal 83.33% 5/6
Folded BB2Steal 62.50% 5/8
Attmptd2Steal 33.33% 6/18

26.5/19.6/1.25 losing 18.87BB/100

If his attmpt2steal stat is anywhere close to accurate, he's stealing 33% from the BU/ 43% from the SB and 23% from the CO? I would think it would be more like 26%/31%/42%.

In any event, I subscribe to "always" (no exceptions) cold calling PF to a steal/raise h/u from the CO & BU. I chose it because:
1. I am out of position.
2. I am going to c/r almost all flops that are favorable. I will start out with that approach and deviate against a particular opponent later in the session.
3. I put in the same amount of money before the flop, which is the nexis of the hand, where the true value of my holding is defined.
4. My opponent has a harder time identifying the value I have given my hand before the turn action.

Any comments on that approach with reasoning for why you chose another approach?

Comments on my line of play & reasoning for same on all streets appreciated.

On the flop my hand may have 10 outs, and then again, the board could have hit my opponent in so many ways, that I do not see any option other than a c/c. If he is bluffing with nothing, well, he is donating and charging himself to outdraw me.

The turn pairs me, but makes a better hand for AQ, Q9, KT,K7. I elect to call. The river brings me top 2 pair and the only hands that beat me are the str8's and a hand with the Q. I should be able to safely bet/fold. Or.....should I be concerned with the fact, that because Button has been betting all streets, he is not going to appreciate my donk on the river and may bet as a bluff with a weaker 2 pair? Plus: He may just muck if his hand was weak, but continue to bet if I check.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A
3 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls

Flop: (4.5 SB) 10, 7, J (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3.25 BB) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls

River: (5.25 BB) A (2 players)
Hero bets,

These stats are completey useless after just 102 hands.

Dont use a HUD if you dont know how to. I mean it. Dont start PT3 or HEM or whatever you use when you play untill you have read enough in the stat threads regarding convergence.

Stats like steal % on the individual positions wont be converged enough untill you have thousands of hands on villain.

As played I think you should c/r turn because you under repped you hand.

I like the river bet. Puke and decide on timing tells if he raises. If he thinks shortly and pops it I fold. If he hesitates a bit more I call. If he tanks I fold.

- If you don't 3B Btn Stls with your hands that are probably better than his, you don't punish him which encourages him to steal from you more.

- You also leave him in control of the hand after it's bad enough he's in position.

- I don't know what you mean by c/r'g almost all flops that are favorable. What are you considering favorable for AK (besides the obvious A or K or nut flush draw on a monoflop?)

- Your concepts sound like fancy play syndrome to me.

Three betting and leading out on almost any flop I miss is what I usually do. A lot of times Villain folds right there, which I consider a good result when OOP on a missed flop. If I hit a safe looking flop w/ TPTK I might slowplay and hope he charges himself to continue.

Not true. Since people cbet 100% we can "punish" him on the flop

Again since people cbet 100% we can take control on the flop with a c/r

227, 24T, 23J etc etc

Fancy or not you will see a large portion of the best online players advocate this strategy.

If you paid attention to the forums and the coaching sites you would know all this

Well, I'm paying attention on the forum now.

1. With a good hand like AK versus a Btn Stealer, you're likely to be ahead before the flop. After the flop, you may or may not be. Why not get more money in when you're more likely to be ahead?

2. If villain folds to a flop c/r, you got 3SB out of him. If you 3B before the flop, donk the flop and he folds, you also got 3SB out of him. So that's the same.

But if you c/r the flop he's more likely to peel than if you 3B preflop and bet the flop. People often don't like to bet and then fold for one more. If he peels when you've missed the flop, you're out of position and don't know where you stand.

Since aggressive button stealers can have a wide range of hands, there are not that many flops, if any, that I can see could be considered safe for AK if AK misses. Won't a button stealer steal with an Ace with any kicker, any suited King, J9, 87s and maybe 87o etc.?

So I still don't understand the advantage of the pfcall/flop c/r with a strong hand like AK.

You are missing the point completely, when you c/r Ak its for value not to make the other guy fold.

1. Where do you get a breakdown of Steal % by position? PT2 only gives one % for all steal attempts.

2. Why do you think the percentages are different than wherever you got them from?

3. How would that translate into one %? Take the average of them?

- I'm pretty happy when guys fold when I miss the flop and I'm in position. I'm very happy when I'm OOP. I don't like playing OOP and trying to guess if a guy called because he spiked something or if I'm still ahead.

- I think AK wins about 1.5 BB/hand average from all positions. I'm not sure how much it wins from the BB, but I would assume it's considerably less than the average.

If I can get 3SB or 1.5BB out of AK when OOP in the BB and I miss the flop I'm pretty happy.

BTW, I just noticed the title of this thread is BB vs SB w/ AK, but the hand example is for a Button Stealer. So I've been discussing being OOP. (And I've been discussing how to play in general, not specific to this flop which is pretty good for AK.)

Tom

No question about it. If only considering the current hand then a preflop 3bet is the play.

However we consider our entire range.

The primary argument for the "never 3bet" strategy is balance.

So yeah. We give up some value in a vacuum. However because of everbody cbetting 100% (which is grossly exploitable btw) we still get to cr a lot of flops. So the lost value is not so great and when you compare it with the gained value of being balanced against a hand reader its very much possible that the "never 3bet" strategy is better than 3betting your good hands.


FWIW. I am not a subscriber to the "never 3bet" strategy. I will most often 3bet AK here. But I will also just call it a fair bit depending on dynamics and the villain.

Not that I am implying that I am in the "some of the best online players" pool. Just saying...

It doesn't. I assume that if the avg is 40%, then that's what he steals from the Button, 30% from the CO and 50% from the SB. However, like Oink said, you need about 1k hands. I only put the stats there because a lot of people who respond like them.

See above. I estimated. Since this villain steals 33%, his avg from the CO would only be 23% and that seems awfully low. Especially since I know (which I didn't advise in the original post) that he will open/raise from SB with 52% of his holdings, because he did it 3 times with hands in the bottom of that range. I think it was because of the fact that there were so few hands in which he had an opportunity to steal, that his steal % was lower than normal for a person who steals 52% from the SB because I had such a small sample.

That's what PT2 does, takes the avg of CO/BU & SB. I understand PT3 only takes CO & BU and lists the stat for attmpt to steal from SB seperately which is great.

PT3 and HEM gives you these. Well PT3 does. Not sure about HEM.

As an example

My ATSB is 47. In the CO its 35, 54 OTB and 60 in the SB. (Thats filtered for more than 3 players at the table. In PT3 a open raise OTB in a HUHU math is a steal, so people who will play a lot of HUHU will get really high "atsb" numbers in PT3 for unfiltered stats.)

Its certainly a stat thats quite usefull when you have thousands of hands on people. It will give some very specific information on other regs and if they small but exploitable leaks PF. In my games as an example lot of regs steal too much in the SB and not enough OTB.

@ UTZ
No. PT3's ATSB stat is a weighted average of you steal percentages in the CO, OTB and in the SB

Another thought I had about this. A lot of times you are probably still ahead on the flop. Probably about 2/3 of the time when you miss because Villain misses 2/3 of the time also. So I can see there could be value there 2/3 of the time. Is it more or less by theory?

But a big problem I think when OOP is that if Villain peels, you now have to play OOP.

What's the turn typical turn continuation of this line if the turn doesn't bring an A or K? I would assume bet again and fold to a raise?

If you check the turn, how much danger have you put yourself into of a guy stealing the pot from you with a bet when he has a worse hand? I would think a lot.

Are you going to C/C a missed turn?

Bet and decide

You c/r the 227 flop for value and to make your c/r range less polarized. When weak players and weak regulars c/r that flop their range will always be polarized betwenn 7x, 2x, pps and bull****. This makes it very profitable to call down with A4 and to not give more action with say 87.

If a strong villain c/r that flop he will have the same hands as the weak one but also AK/AQ/AJ. This makes it much much less profitable for villain to just call down A4 and it makes villain lose value when he doesnt give action with 87.

The trick in modern online 6max is to not be polarized (well in any online game where the players are decent handreaders. So I guess 1/2 and above in LHE and above NL25 in NLHE).

The players who crush will be unpolarized against other regs and will adjust great against poor fish. The players who barely breakeven are the opposite. They have polarized ranges and they adjust poorly to the fish.

The trick is to not think about the hand you are playing but the range of hands you would have.

Good players play their distribution. Bad players play their hand

Hi Oink,
I haven't heard this theory before I don't think. Is there a book for further reading about it?