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Originally Posted by skydiver8
I posted mine. I have nothing to hide.
Right. You support the Cathedral; therefore, you are safe. I do not support the Cathedral; therefore, I am not. That we live in a society which harshly punishes heresy is no more evidence that our theocracy's religious dogma is true than was Galileo's recantation.
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Originally Posted by skydiver8
I think you are falling prey to a bit of confirmation bias here. Or just plain old bias. In my opinion, getting a philosophy or political science or English degree would have been MUCH harder than engineering, which came easily to me. Dear lord, I can't think of anything more excruciatingly difficult than sitting through hours of lectures on the use of floral symbolism in 18th century British poetry or debating the sources of morality with a bunch of post-adolescent conservative kids...oh wait, that was my mandatory Philosophy 101 class, sorry.
Do you think studying those subjects was/would have been unpleasant for you because they did not interest you, or because you were incapable of succeeding at them? I suspect that if you had been properly incentivized, you could have done very well at any academic subject you chose to pursue.
(Watch
this. The whole video is interesting, but I understand that not everyone has an hour they care to burn watching some guy talk about genetics and intelligence. I've linked to the little bit that's relevant to what we're discussing here - the relative difficulty of STEM subjects vs. non-STEM subjects.)
Also, it sounds like you have an unusually masculine brain, for a woman. Would you agree with that assessment?
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Originally Posted by skydiver8
I agree with you that men and women are different. But "different" does not mean "smarter" or "dumber".
I agree with you that "different" does not mean "smarter" or "dumber."
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Originally Posted by skydiver8
And as for women being underrepresented in STEM subjects, I suppose it's time for me to present my final credential: I am female.
"If introspection is your only source for a belief, you should hold it very weakly."
Do you agree with this proposition?
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Originally Posted by skydiver8
You're right, they are underrepresented. But it isn't because <Barbie> math class sure is hard </Barbie>. It's because little girls are TOLD over and over and over that math class is hard. So they start to believe it. And if it isn't hard, they are laughed at and derided and called names. The teacher doesn't call on them in class as much as they call on the boys. So they start to believe the bad things kids are saying. And they believe their teacher doesn't value them. So they stop paying attention in math, or pretend to not get it, because kids are evil little creatures who destroy souls, and teachers are the ones who are supposed to be nurturing their talents but aren't.
This would have been my fate, because I was there. Unlike many of my friends, though, I had parents who gave a damn and valued education and encouraged me to think for myself. And they pushed my schools and my teachers to push me, so rather than just another future English major, I was learning 7th grade algebra in 5th grade and loving it. Unfortunately, most girls don't have that. So they leave math and science behind and go quietly to where they're "supposed" to go, like good little girls. And by the time they get to college, it's too damned late, and that is f'in tragic.
It's a big damned self fulfilling prophecy that actually brings me to tears when I think about it, because it leads, in turn, to people like you, who are obviously otherwise intelligent, thinking that girls are stupider than boys in math and science, who in turn impart that to their sons and daughters, who make fun of the nerd girls at school, and the cycle continues.
This story makes me like you. I'm very sorry for your negative experiences during childhood, and I agree that anyone who punishes a student of any gender for being good at math is doing something wrong. I also agree that the tendency for people to compel the perpetuation of stereotypes/cultural norms has detrimental effects on people who are not naturally stereotypical.
But I do not agree that the under-representation of women in STEM subjects is attributable only to "a big damned self fulfilling prophecy." And although I recoil from having my views summarized as "girls are stupider than boys in math and science," I will bite the bullet. You admit that men and women are "different." Why, then, is it so strange to think that men might be, on average, more gifted than women in certain areas - even intellectual ones?
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Originally Posted by skydiver8
That's what I think of your assertion that women aren't libertarian because it's hard and we women don't like to work hard. Women work harder to get by than you can ever possibly imagine, and it starts in grade school.
You've misunderstood me - I made no such assertion, although it's easy to see how one might have reasonably (but mistakenly) made such an inference.
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Originally Posted by skydiver8
You express yourself well, but pouring a bottle of Chanel No. 5 on a turd to make it smell pretty doesn't change the fact that it's still a pile of ****.
You are obviously an intelligent person, so you will understand what I mean when I say that it sounds like you are too close to this issue to think about it in an unbiased fashion. Whether men and women as groups possess different degrees of innate mathematical prowess has
no impact whatsoever on your own personal skill/ability/talent. I am not trying to denigrate or attack you.