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why so few women are libertarians? why so few women are libertarians?

06-15-2013 , 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
How acquainted with this area of study are you, anyway? I'm sorry, if you've posted your extensive background elsewhere, I must have missed it. Degrees? Post-graduate or otherwise? From where?
I have not posted my extensive background anywhere in connection with this account, to my knowledge, and in fact I am nervous that what little background information I have provided may have been too much. I would not be willing to say what I have here if it were possible to link these words to my name.

I appreciate your request for credentials though and agree that they are relevant to the question of how much weight one's words deserve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
As for the PhD/higher education issue that is being discussed here, what subjects would you consider more rigorous? I assume you are talking about STEM subjects, but I want to make sure. On the flip side, which subjects would you consider less rigorous?


This cartoon is a reasonable summary of my views.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
Just trying to get some background, which will help me/us understand your position or possibly take it more seriously.
My position is grounded in taking Darwinian natural selection seriously and in recognizing that the dominant meme in our culture promotes a belief in human neurological uniformity - a belief that has its roots in Puritan Universalism and is at odds with reality.
06-15-2013 , 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by airwave16
i'd say that the fact that he basically said "women aren't smart enough to be libertarians" should pretty much make it obvious that it's ridiculous.
You are putting quotation marks around words that are not a quote. Do you see why that's problematic?

He did not say "women aren't smart enough to be libertarians." The word "basically" is a bad substitute for "did not."

Quote:
Originally Posted by airwave16
the only scientific research that has ever come close to agreeing with this point has been research showing women having lower representation on the high and low extremes of IQ tests, but it shouldn't need pointing out that this is not the same as saying "lol wimmins is stupider den menz"
I agree that this shouldn't need pointing out.
06-15-2013 , 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by airwave16
this is not evidence that "math is too hard for women," this is evidence that women on the whole are less interested in higher education in engineering. you can't point to a statistic like this and conclude that women are dumb when it's judging behavior and not intelligence.
I agree with this post.
06-15-2013 , 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleeds
I'll give it a go. I know they are all emotional and soppy and **** so as soon as something gets a little tough they go off for a cry, but would it be reasonable to think that woman were not/are not given the same opportunities as men as far as academic pursuit is concerned?
This is a reasonable hypothesis. In fact, it is a very popular one with an awful lot of people. I happen to think it is almost certainly true.
06-15-2013 , 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo
And how do you piece that belief into the work done on sexual attraction?
If I understand what you're asking (and I'm not sure that I am), I am saying that your personal preferences ought not influence your belief about what the median or mean personal preferences of a group that you belong to are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo
Show me a study on the topic that doesn't rely on some survey at some point, please.
Social science relies heavily on surveys, which is one of the reasons that it's less reliable than the hard sciences. Although some skepticism is warranted, I think you're taking it too far. I can provide you with lots of links to studies reproducing these results, but you could just as easily find them yourself, and if you don't WANT to be persuaded/learn, then I'd just be wasting my time.
06-15-2013 , 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by airwave16
there is a difference between saying that male and female brains are different and saying that because women only get phds in "easy" subjects, women aren't as smart as men.
I agree with this. You should note that I have made no statements to the contrary.
06-15-2013 , 11:48 AM
It's more grammatical than anything else, but the issue isn't why so few women are libertarians, but why so few libertarians are women.

Isn't it?
06-15-2013 , 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
First of all, there is no evidence for the claim that "women are generally less inclined to engage in strenuous intellectual pursuits than men."
I disagree with this. I think there is a lot of evidence for that proposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
I hope you realize that this is an extremely controversial claim that is very, very difficult to validate with anything resembling scientific rigor.
Most interesting claims about human beings and behavior are. I am comfortable making generalizations in the absence of scientific rigor - so too are you, else you could not function in the world as it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
The parameters of the question are so ill-defined that it's difficult even to conceive of any metric that could serve as data for it (due to a huge endogeneity problem)
If you could elaborate on what you perceive to be the huge endogeneity problem, I'd appreciate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
there're enormous dangers of cognitive bias hijacking the research process (can you think of non-sexist reasons for even asking this question?).
Can you think of non-sexist reasons for not asking it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
Second of all, even if this was true, why would that explain why men are more likely to be libertarian?
See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
Is it seriously your opinion that those possessed of exceptional cognitive excellence in non-political domains tend to have more "rational" (whatever this means) political views?
Yes, that is my opinion, although you couldn't have deduced that from anything I've said thus far. Making such an inference would have required making an unsupported/illogical leap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
Or is your argument really that the arguments that form the groundwork of libertarianism are more intellectually demanding than those that form the groundwork of competing political philosophies?
I haven't been arguing this so far, but I do believe it is true if by "competing political philosophies" you mean mainstream competing political philosophies. Mainstream political philosophies are almost necessarily very simple - otherwise they could not be mainstream. I think most fringe political philosophies are more intellectually demanding than most mainstream ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
What does that even mean?
Breaking from the status quo requires mental effort. Intellectually lazy people are less likely to do so. Instead, they simply ally with "Team Red" or "Team Blue" and decide what they believe about specific issues based on that simple heuristic. See:



Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
The initial choice of axiomatic (meta-ethical) propositions that drive more specific political belief-formation is almost always made non-rationally, and the choice among competing normative concerns is not amenable to rational argumentation in any event.
I agree with this.
06-15-2013 , 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
Meh, I doubt you could find evidence that would support a causal inference here.
This deserves its own post:

Understanding Libertarian Morality: The Psychological Dispositions of Self-Identified Libertarians
06-15-2013 , 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
This is totally bizarre. By what objective criteria are engineering, mathematics, or computer science more "difficult" or "strenuous" than those fields that are female-dominated (or evenly distributed)?
There are no objective criteria by which STEM fields can be labeled more difficult or strenuous than non-STEM fields. All such judgments are value-laden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
Are you saying that, e.g., law (which is female-dominated) is less intellectually rigorous than math?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
How do you know?
This is not something that can be known.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
How did you come to form your opinion on what criteria to use?
I'd rather not say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern
How do you know those criteria don't contain an implicit gender bias?
They definitely do. Any rank ordering of subjects according to difficulty or strenuousness will contain an implicit gender bias.
06-15-2013 , 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Key
He can't tell you. He's an expert who could be identified if he did. Just please accept without any thought whatsoever his appeals to his own authority.
It is true that I am concerned about having what I've written here linked to me and that explaining how I came to form my opinion on what criteria to use would help anyone who was interested in doing so. It is not true that I expect anyone to thoughtlessly accept anything I say.
06-15-2013 , 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
I posted mine. I have nothing to hide.
Right. You support the Cathedral; therefore, you are safe. I do not support the Cathedral; therefore, I am not. That we live in a society which harshly punishes heresy is no more evidence that our theocracy's religious dogma is true than was Galileo's recantation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
I think you are falling prey to a bit of confirmation bias here. Or just plain old bias. In my opinion, getting a philosophy or political science or English degree would have been MUCH harder than engineering, which came easily to me. Dear lord, I can't think of anything more excruciatingly difficult than sitting through hours of lectures on the use of floral symbolism in 18th century British poetry or debating the sources of morality with a bunch of post-adolescent conservative kids...oh wait, that was my mandatory Philosophy 101 class, sorry.
Do you think studying those subjects was/would have been unpleasant for you because they did not interest you, or because you were incapable of succeeding at them? I suspect that if you had been properly incentivized, you could have done very well at any academic subject you chose to pursue.

(Watch this. The whole video is interesting, but I understand that not everyone has an hour they care to burn watching some guy talk about genetics and intelligence. I've linked to the little bit that's relevant to what we're discussing here - the relative difficulty of STEM subjects vs. non-STEM subjects.)

Also, it sounds like you have an unusually masculine brain, for a woman. Would you agree with that assessment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
I agree with you that men and women are different. But "different" does not mean "smarter" or "dumber".
I agree with you that "different" does not mean "smarter" or "dumber."

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
And as for women being underrepresented in STEM subjects, I suppose it's time for me to present my final credential: I am female.
"If introspection is your only source for a belief, you should hold it very weakly."

Do you agree with this proposition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
You're right, they are underrepresented. But it isn't because <Barbie> math class sure is hard </Barbie>. It's because little girls are TOLD over and over and over that math class is hard. So they start to believe it. And if it isn't hard, they are laughed at and derided and called names. The teacher doesn't call on them in class as much as they call on the boys. So they start to believe the bad things kids are saying. And they believe their teacher doesn't value them. So they stop paying attention in math, or pretend to not get it, because kids are evil little creatures who destroy souls, and teachers are the ones who are supposed to be nurturing their talents but aren't.

This would have been my fate, because I was there. Unlike many of my friends, though, I had parents who gave a damn and valued education and encouraged me to think for myself. And they pushed my schools and my teachers to push me, so rather than just another future English major, I was learning 7th grade algebra in 5th grade and loving it. Unfortunately, most girls don't have that. So they leave math and science behind and go quietly to where they're "supposed" to go, like good little girls. And by the time they get to college, it's too damned late, and that is f'in tragic.

It's a big damned self fulfilling prophecy that actually brings me to tears when I think about it, because it leads, in turn, to people like you, who are obviously otherwise intelligent, thinking that girls are stupider than boys in math and science, who in turn impart that to their sons and daughters, who make fun of the nerd girls at school, and the cycle continues.
This story makes me like you. I'm very sorry for your negative experiences during childhood, and I agree that anyone who punishes a student of any gender for being good at math is doing something wrong. I also agree that the tendency for people to compel the perpetuation of stereotypes/cultural norms has detrimental effects on people who are not naturally stereotypical.

But I do not agree that the under-representation of women in STEM subjects is attributable only to "a big damned self fulfilling prophecy." And although I recoil from having my views summarized as "girls are stupider than boys in math and science," I will bite the bullet. You admit that men and women are "different." Why, then, is it so strange to think that men might be, on average, more gifted than women in certain areas - even intellectual ones?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
That's what I think of your assertion that women aren't libertarian because it's hard and we women don't like to work hard. Women work harder to get by than you can ever possibly imagine, and it starts in grade school.
You've misunderstood me - I made no such assertion, although it's easy to see how one might have reasonably (but mistakenly) made such an inference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
You express yourself well, but pouring a bottle of Chanel No. 5 on a turd to make it smell pretty doesn't change the fact that it's still a pile of ****.
You are obviously an intelligent person, so you will understand what I mean when I say that it sounds like you are too close to this issue to think about it in an unbiased fashion. Whether men and women as groups possess different degrees of innate mathematical prowess has no impact whatsoever on your own personal skill/ability/talent. I am not trying to denigrate or attack you.
06-15-2013 , 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LirvA
Just because someone is in need, it doesn't give them the right to use violence against other people.
Correct - that is not what gives them the right to use violence against other people. Might makes right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LirvA
Free will, and scarcity of life in the universe, though.
The belief in free will is a religious fiction from which you would do well to divorce yourself.
06-15-2013 , 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by airwave16
if he were serious about "taking darwinian natural selection seriously," then he wouldn't be making statements that are contrary to scientific research and evolutionary biology theory.
This is potentially very interesting to me. Which statements have I made that are contrary to scientific research and evolutionary biology theory? Please understand that I do not consider myself an advocate for a position here, although I do take one. Above all, I would rather be right than wrong. If I am mistaken, let me discover it swiftly.
06-15-2013 , 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sards
Yes, that quote is serious. I think most people of both sexes are generally more interested in emotional arguments than logical ones, but this is a bit more true of women than men. To speculate as to why it is so, I think it probably is because women have a higher capacity for empathy than men, in general. I'm not sure why you find that suggestion so implausible.

As for libertarianism being comprised of logical arguments, I don't mean to imply that all of libertarianism is laid out in rigorous syllogisms. But I do think that libertarian discourse is far less likely to resort to appeals to emotion than liberalism and conservatism, and far more likely to argue from first principles to arrive at intuitively and emotionally unappealing conclusions (like "sexual harassment should be legal.") Somebody in this thread suggested snarkily that libertarians are the way they are because they are autistic (or on the spectrum.) The obvious implication is that libertarians are not empathetic; I think there is a grain of truth to this, which helps bolster my point.

Finally, I think the reason I gave is only a partial explanation of why libertarianism doesn't appeal to many women. There are certainly other factors, many of which have been mentioned in this thread.
+1
06-15-2013 , 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver8
At the risk of playing into one of Spladle's ghastly stereotypes, I will admit that women, in general seem to be more intuitive and emotionally perceptive than their average male counterparts.
Rhetorical question: Why do you feel the need to append the modifier "ghastly" to "stereotypes"?

Your brain has been eaten by a virus.
06-15-2013 , 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionzip54
I can't believe you guys are making such broad generalizations frankly. Where is the proof that more men are libertarians? Don't give me the anecdotal evidence like because all libertarian politicians are men, or OMG only male libertarians in the politics forum, and, well, golly gee zip, I've done only met male libertarians.

This whole thread is kind of disgusting because both sides are stereotyping women to fit their own arguments.
http://www.people-press.org/2011/05/...-news-sources/
06-15-2013 , 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionzip54
I was reading the paper the other day and in one article I saw libertarians called "terrorist loving do-gooders", it was an article about Snowden, and on the next page someone called them "capitalists without compassion".

I'm so confused. So am I a compassionate do gooder or not?
Statistically speaking, probably not. The "capitalists without compassion" description is much more accurate than "terrorist loving do-gooders."
06-15-2013 , 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo
Does the "dark triad" refer to the **** and balls? Is that what it means anyway?
Did you seriously not even click the link to the journal article I shared with you? Your question was answered in the first sentence of the introduction.

I guess women really are intellectually lazy!
06-15-2013 , 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissileDog
The point is that libertarian types advocate the violent enforcement of their preferred rules, just as the "lefties" and "righties". The only minor differences are what exactly those rules entail. And that's 100% true.
+1
06-15-2013 , 01:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by airwave16
i must be missing something. i am a bit confused how animal cruelty, pyromania, and bedwetting are supposed to be female turn-ons.
The Dark Triad: Facilitating a Short-Term Mating Strategy in Men
06-15-2013 , 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LirvA
First of all, your hypothetical is entirely implausible. How would it ever be possible for a single person to control all the world's resources, and be able to prevent others from access to them?
If we ever succeed in creating a self-modifying AI, it will rapidly find itself in this position. If you wish to dispute the characterization of such an entity as a "person," that's fine, but you should understand that radical inequalities of power and property have not yet manifested to anything like the degree that they one day will, and denying the possibility of such an outcome strongly suggests that you do not take your own philosophy seriously.
06-15-2013 , 02:17 PM
What is happening here? Why does this thread exist?
06-15-2013 , 02:33 PM
UNCHAINED! may not have been the best move here, Spladle. Keep this up and it's hippo fart time.
06-15-2013 , 02:56 PM
Do we all get mirror-universe facial hair for participating?

      
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