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Old 02-05-2017, 12:30 PM   #76
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
Are the people saying voter fraud isn't an issue literally mean they believe there is 0 instances of voter fraud in the US?
No, there were quite a few trumpkin who were caught trying to vote multiple times. Voter ID would do nothing to stop these cheating republicans.

However, if you know anything about how numbers work, ten or twenty fraudulent GOP votes aren't going to swing an election with 120 million votes cast. It wouldn't even affect the race for local dog catcher.
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:48 PM   #77
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Agree. How is it unreasonable that AAs have to follow a process that everyone else has to?

I thought you democrats were liberals? Isn't one of the fundamental principles of liberalism that the law applies to everyone equally and that includes having to comply with what you are required to be able to lawfully vote?
Like a poll tax?

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
If they have to get further documents to validate their ID in order to get an identity card that's too bad. Get it done. There are probably organisations out there that will assist them if on their own they feel it is too difficult. Also, whoever administers and issues these identity documents over in the US should have programs in place to assist who they perceive are minority groups which find this task difficult.

And anyway, what the **** is this? We lower the requirements just because they are a certain race?
You are RAISING the requirements by putting in an ID law, FFS.

All this "there are probably people that will help you" stuff is nonsense. Make sure there is BEFORE you pass laws. And remember all of this is to prevent in person voter fraud THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN. It's a scam. It's a blatantly racist scam. And you love it.
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:53 PM   #78
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
Are the people saying voter fraud isn't an issue literally mean they believe there is 0 instances of voter fraud in the US?
There's way more absentee voter fraud. Why aren't Republicans worried about that? Hmmm...
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Old 02-06-2017, 03:31 PM   #79
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib View Post
No, there were quite a few trumpkin who were caught trying to vote multiple times. Voter ID would do nothing to stop these cheating republicans.

However, if you know anything about how numbers work, ten or twenty fraudulent GOP votes aren't going to swing an election with 120 million votes cast. It wouldn't even affect the race for local dog catcher.
So you are saying there is exactly 0 instances where voter ID laws would stop a fraudulent vote?

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Originally Posted by 13ball View Post
There's way more absentee voter fraud. Why aren't Republicans worried about that? Hmmm...
I am sure repubs are on the case for absentee voter fraud too. Maybe they see in-person voter fraud occurs more and want to tackle that problem first or it is an easier fix.
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Old 02-06-2017, 04:22 PM   #80
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
If they have to get further documents to validate their ID in order to get an identity card that's too bad. Get it done. There are probably organisations out there that will assist them if on their own they feel it is too difficult. Also, whoever administers and issues these identity documents over in the US should have programs in place to assist who they perceive are minority groups which find this task difficult.

And anyway, what the **** is this? We lower the requirements just because they are a certain race?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test
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Old 02-06-2017, 04:41 PM   #81
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
So you are saying there is exactly 0 instances where voter ID laws would stop a fraudulent vote?
Have you ever lost your license or social security card? Do you know how big of a pain in the ass it is to get all the documentation together to get a new one? I had my wallet stolen once before and there was a small piece of me that jokingly wanted to say screw it and that I just wouldn't drive anywhere anymore. I spent the next day forcing a friend to drive me around town to the various places I had to go to and we had to do it in a particular order because of the proof of ID requirements each piece had. I had to figure out where I had stored my birth certificate. Moment of panic when it wasn't in my security deposit box. I forgot I had to use it sometime before and still had it in my strongbox at home. Took 6 hours to get it all done with a friend that was more than willing to help and that's in a city with plenty of resources. Note that I dumbly didn't know better and that I don't carry stuff like my social security card with me anymore.


If I hadn't had possessed my birth certificate, I don't even know how much longer the process would have been. I think it would entail having to find some place to somehow get a photo ID made and work from there. My point is that it's a very real hassle to do these things, and I'm a very capable person with a car, money for gas, the ability to schedule time off to do things like this.


To bring this on topic, I admit that there may be some minor voting fraud happening, even if I have never see any actual evidence. I'm saying that I agree that it may be possible but I'm also saying that I don't believe it's happening until someone shows me some cases where it was shown to actually be happening. Because I haven't been shown any real evidence of it happening, I could not being to venture a guess on the number of fraudulent votes being cast.


However, with confidence, I can say that I know there are many people that would vote and now cannot or just won't because of the increased number of hurdles needed to be leaped. As for your reaction to those that just won't do it now that it's harder and more work, you're probably going to say "What's stopping them? It's not me." And you're half-right. No one is stopping them, but we have put in place more difficulty and it is preventing people from voting. As someone mentioned before, these are people that DO want to vote as they have gone out of their way to register to vote. We're not talking about unregistered people that wouldn't matter anyway. And yes, I agree, many of them have the physical capability to go through the extra hoops, but if they're not willing and the people implementing the voter ID laws know they won't be willing, then putting the laws in place are actually restricting their votes.


All so you can feel safe about a problem that isn't even happening.
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Old 02-07-2017, 10:49 PM   #82
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
So you are saying there is exactly 0 instances where voter ID laws would stop a fraudulent vote?
I'm not saying there's zero, because Lowkey's law, but I am saying the burden of proving it happens more than other types of fraud is on your shoulders.

Quote:
I am sure repubs are on the case for absentee voter fraud too. Maybe they see in-person voter fraud occurs more and want to tackle that problem first or it is an easier fix.
Hey, look, a news story:

Next on the chopping block for the GOP? The commission that oversees and secures our votes

https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/07/bi...s-in-congress/

And remember, this was the party that pretended to care about securing the vote with voter ID.

Do you ever get tired of being lied to by your party, bahbah?
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Old 02-07-2017, 11:26 PM   #83
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

This is a random dumb aside and I assure you no sort of convoluted Gotcha type question, just a hypothetical.

If there were two laws on the books that disenfranchised groups of people from voting and they were:

1) Disenfranchised 80% of a group of people, but that group was smaller and affected say 50k people total, and the other was

2) Disenfranchised 50% of a group of people, but that group was larger and it affected 100k people total,

And you have the power to strike down one of the two laws, which do you choose to eliminate and why?

Of course it is easy to consider that maybe there are many other external factors to consider if this were a real scenario, but for the sake of the thought experiment just assume that all of those factors kind of wash out neutrally.
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Old 02-07-2017, 11:35 PM   #84
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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This is a random dumb aside and I assure you no sort of convoluted Gotcha type question, just a hypothetical.

If there were two laws on the books that disenfranchised groups of people from voting and they were:

1) Disenfranchised 80% of a group of people, but that group was smaller and affected say 50k people total, and the other was

2) Disenfranchised 50% of a group of people, but that group was larger and it affected 100k people total,

And you have the power to strike down one of the two laws, which do you choose to eliminate and why?

Of course it is easy to consider that maybe there are many other external factors to consider if this were a real scenario, but for the sake of the thought experiment just assume that all of those factors kind of wash out neutrally.
which disenfranchises more dems?
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:46 AM   #85
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

All things being equal, you'd want to disenfranchise as few people as possible.

But if the 80% group were a vulnerable population of some kind, then that concern might outweigh the other. Or perhaps if it were a group whose voting rights you fell obligated to protect--say veterans or active duty military.
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Old 03-23-2017, 03:23 PM   #86
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Ex-Colo. GOP leader said only Democrats committed voter fraud. Now he’s charged with voter fraud.

Quote:
On Tuesday, Colorado prosecutors threw a wrench into that already dubious theory, accusing Curtis of voter fraud for allegedly filling out and mailing in his ex-wife’s 2016 ballot for president, Denver’s Fox affiliate reported.

Curtis, 57, was charged in Weld County District Court with one count of misdemeanor voter fraud and one count of forgery, a Class 5 felony, according to local media.

The case is the only voter fraud investigation related to the 2016 election that has resulted in criminal charges in the state, the Colorado secretary of state’s office told Denver’s ABC affiliate.
1. LOL GOP
2. As with most of the very rare reports of voter fraud, proposed ID laws would do nothing to stop this
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Old 03-24-2017, 10:14 AM   #87
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

I agree that video doesn't mean much since it is obviously a small size.... just like every article written that talks about the negative effects of voter ID laws. Every article talks about 2-4 people w/ a sob story that tries to appeal to the reader's emotions.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:19 AM   #88
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud



How about this video?

The times when republicans forget to pretend this isn't just some cheap political trick to win elections has to be pretty damning, right?
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:37 AM   #89
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Passing a law that will increase your party's chance of winning an election by .01534% is disgusting. Do you think this is worse than dems plan to pay for votes via pro-entitlement laws or the way they vilify and yell down conservatives by calling them racist, sexist, etc?
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:43 AM   #90
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

I am certainly not claiming the dems are beyond criticism but what does that have to do with the GOPs push for voter ID laws?
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:48 AM   #91
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Every major party tries to make laws that helps them win elections.
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Old 03-24-2017, 12:01 PM   #92
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Ok. So we agree then that voter ID laws are a bull**** ploy to try to win elections.

/thread?
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Old 03-24-2017, 12:32 PM   #93
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Ok. So we agree then that voter ID laws are a bull**** ploy to try to win elections.

/thread?
No, I never said they were a ploy just to win elections. I think it is a side effect that adjusts the probability of a repub win by such a small amount that it isn't worth discussing.

Anyone that thinks requiring an ID to vote would be anything close to significant in swinging an election lives in a fantasy land.
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Old 03-24-2017, 12:57 PM   #94
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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dems plan to pay for votes
rofl
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Old 03-24-2017, 12:59 PM   #95
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
No, I never said they were a ploy just to win elections. I think it is a side effect that adjusts the probability of a repub win by such a small amount that it isn't worth discussing.
But you're you, you're not in the business of knowing things, "I think X" when X is completely unsourced and based on no evidence is absolutely worthless in this discussion. Studies have shown ID laws affect a much wider range of the population than

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.01534%
, you're just making **** up, that's your only play in every argument.
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Old 03-24-2017, 01:57 PM   #96
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

I just threw out a number & after doing the math you are right that I am way off. That number suggests over 50k people. There is no way to know for sure exactly how many people would/wouldn't vote because of voter ID laws, but obviously it is nowhere near 50k.
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:20 PM   #97
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
There is no way to know for sure exactly how many people would/wouldn't vote because of voter ID laws, but obviously it is nowhere near 50k.
Cite.
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:44 PM   #98
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
I just threw out a number & after doing the math you are right that I am way off. That number suggests over 50k people. There is no way to know for sure exactly how many people would/wouldn't vote because of voter ID laws, but obviously it is nowhere near 50k.
Um... ok. That doesn't seem obvious to me in a pool of ~50-60mil+ voters who live in states with voter ID laws but I'll let it go for now.

Can you give me a ballpark figure about how prevalent you think voter fraud is in a national election? You can use either evidence or just gut feeling about what order of magnitude we are talking about. 10? 100? 1000? 10000? 100000? 1000000? 10000000?

Last edited by TheMadcap; 03-24-2017 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:59 PM   #99
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Cite.
In my post (that you quoted) I said there is no way to know how many the real number is. This is like asking me how many pancakes would be consumed in the US if the price of a pancake dropped 80% tomorrow. Nobody is going to KNOW the number and with any guess you are left wondering if there is a political motive behind it.

Do you believe there is anywhere near 50k people in the US who aren't voting because they can't get an ID? My guess on how many people per presidential election that would/wont vote based on requiring an ID is somewhere around 1k-5k nationally.

Save me from the talk of so-so said they had 30k people polled that said they can't get an ID but if they did they would vote. The % of those that are true is the same % of people that say if they won the lottery they'd give half to charity.
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:12 PM   #100
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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In my post (that you quoted) I said there is no way to know how many the real number is.
Okay, then per forum rules you cannot claim the number is "obviously less than 50k". Good try!
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