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Old 02-03-2017, 03:02 PM   #26
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
The number of time voter fraud occurs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of people who want to vote but can't because of an voter ID law.
You are simply making this up. There is no evidence for significant in-person voter fraud--and people have been looking for decades now.

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The negative consequences of MW far outweigh the good it provides for a small group of people.
The difference here is that voting is a civil right. And the evidence that Voter ID laws are useless is much more clear.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:03 PM   #27
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by Gustafson26 View Post
Am I being naive, or is it really easy to get an ID? Not a driver license, but just a run of the mill personal identification card. Pretty sure you just go to the DMV or go online and fill out form, right?

And isn't an ID used for basically everything in nowadays? How does someone function in society without being able to produce an ID?

ie. cigarettes, alcohol, weed (some states. the smart ones), opening a bank account, applying for welfare, apply for medicade, social security, a job, rent/buy a house, drive/buy/rent a car, get on an airplane, purchase a gun, rent a hotel room, get a hunting license, get in a casino, pick up a presciption, even to buy certain cold medicine.

I think an ID is needed just to get through life but, I guess it's just my white privilege talking.
I think you need a birth certificate and maybe another document to get an ID.

The liberal thought is that the people in this super small % of the population that can't do the stuff you list above and can't really function in our society really want to vote on the stuff they can't participate in.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:04 PM   #28
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by 13ball View Post
Most of the "noncitizens voting" stories are junk, but even if it were all true--THAT's A VOTER REGISTRATION ISSUE. Noncitizens can get IDs, so voter ID laws won't stop them from voting.
Yeah, so are the stories of people who can't get an ID that want to vote.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:06 PM   #29
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
It's like you don't even read your own posts. Or did you mean a different group when you said AA?

The conservatives who wrote the voter ID laws said they were racist why should liberals stop agreeing with them?
As I've said 3 times already some of the people who voted for MW laws did them to hurt minorities too. Stop making this argument with out addressing my point that if voter ID laws are racist so are MW laws.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:06 PM   #30
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Re: President Trump

What documents would be needed that couldn't be produced, or a pain to retrieve again if lost or stolen? Like a birth certificate/social security card? Those are pretty damn important to have too if that's what you're referring to. Just because something is an inconvenience to someone, isn't really an excuse. It's not impossible, just seems like it may not be a priority for some people.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:10 PM   #31
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by 13ball View Post
You are simply making this up. There is no evidence for significant in-person voter fraud--and people have been looking for decades now.

The difference here is that voting is a civil right. And the evidence that Voter ID laws are useless is much more clear.
I don't have proof that there is 100x more voter fraud than instances of people wanting to vote who don't have an ID, but it seems insane to me that someone could not believe this to be true.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:31 PM   #32
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
I don't have proof that there is 100x more voter fraud than instances of people wanting to vote who don't have an ID, but it seems insane to me that someone could not believe this to be true.
You can look up estimates of registered voters without IDs. Even the smallest estimates are orders of magnitude greater than any in-person fraud cases found.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.0b7f42478b2d

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A federal court in Texas found that 608,470 registered voters donít have the forms of identification that the state now requires for voting. For example, residents can vote with their concealed-carry handgun licenses but not their state-issued student university IDs.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:37 PM   #33
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
I don't have proof that there is 100x more voter fraud than instances of people wanting to vote who don't have an ID, but it seems insane to me that someone could not believe this to be true.
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Originally Posted by 13ball View Post
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A federal court in Texas found that 608,470 registered voters donít have the forms of identification that the state now requires for voting.
I'm sure mickey will totally rethink his position now that the foundation he thought people would be insane not to believe has turned to not just be false, but wrong by several orders of magnitude.

Right, mickey?
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:40 PM   #34
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by Gustafson26 View Post
Am I being naive, or is it really easy to get an ID? Not a driver license, but just a run of the mill personal identification card. Pretty sure you just go to the DMV or go online and fill out form, right?

And isn't an ID used for basically everything in nowadays? How does someone function in society without being able to produce an ID?

ie. cigarettes, alcohol, weed (some states. the smart ones), opening a bank account, applying for welfare, apply for medicade, social security, a job, rent/buy a house, drive/buy/rent a car, get on an airplane, purchase a gun, rent a hotel room, get a hunting license, get in a casino, pick up a presciption, even to buy certain cold medicine.

I think an ID is needed just to get through life but, I guess it's just my white privilege talking.
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:02 PM   #35
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

^^LOL
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:33 PM   #36
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
As I've said 3 times already some of the people who voted for MW laws did them to hurt minorities too. Stop making this argument with out addressing my point that if voter ID laws are racist so are MW laws.
who gives a **** about minimum wage bahbah? No one is arguing about it, not even you, you were talking about voter ID and then you hop to MW for no reason.

Chez if Bahbah is going to make such ****ing stupid arguments could you make this a triangle thread please?
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:57 PM   #37
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by 13ball View Post
You can look up estimates of registered voters without IDs. Even the smallest estimates are orders of magnitude greater than any in-person fraud cases found.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.0b7f42478b2d
Just because 600k don't have a federal ID doesn't mean they can't get one and it doesn't mean they want to vote.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:01 PM   #38
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
who gives a **** about minimum wage bahbah? No one is arguing about it, not even you, you were talking about voter ID and then you hop to MW for no reason.

Chez if Bahbah is going to make such ****ing stupid arguments could you make this a triangle thread please?
I care about MW. You, and many before you, have said voter ID laws are racist because some of the politicians who like it do so because it hurts minorities. If they truly are racist I want to end voter ID laws and MW.

In your "logic" of deciding what makes a law racist what is the difference between MW & voter ID?
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:03 PM   #39
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
I don't have proof that there is 100x more voter fraud than instances of people wanting to vote who don't have an ID, but it seems insane to me that someone could not believe this to be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
Just because 600k don't have a federal ID doesn't mean they can't get one and it doesn't mean they want to vote.
This is what's known as a "goalpost shift" and mickey, it's how we know that you are completely dishonest in your views.

Before you knew that 600,000 registered voters didn't have the ID Texas mandates they have in order to vote, the idea that the occurrence of voter fraud dwarfs the number of people who don't have ID was super important to you.

But when someone educated you on that being false, you didn't recalibrate your views, you just recalibrated the reasons why you believe the same thing you already believed before. Now it's not important whatsoever that hundreds of thousands of people don't have that ID, the important thing is that they could get a new one if they wanted (spoiler alert: that's also not always the case, but there's no point in going down that road with you because you've proven you don't really give a **** about the truth).

The only thing you truly believe in is never changing your beliefs, even when presented with evidence that the reasons why you believe those things are totally false. Tell us, mickey, why should any of us bother trying to teach a total waste of time like you?
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:04 PM   #40
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
Just because 600k don't have a federal ID doesn't mean they can't get one and it doesn't mean they want to vote.
well in this very thread ppl were expressing skepticism that large amounts of ppl were able to exist in society without such identification. so now that that has been debunked, we have shifted to arguing that these ppl are easily able to get proper id, but they just dont.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:06 PM   #41
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
This is what's known as a "goalpost shift"
HiFive!

but ya, you said it better than me
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:08 PM   #42
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Every state, for a period of one year, should offer to give out FREE voter ID cards at select locations all around the state as long as the person can prove they are a US citizen and not a felon. If someone can't manage to stop and pick one up in 365 days that is their bad and they should have to purchase one. And if one needs reissued due to it being lost, then have a phone # to call to verify some personal info (all their info would be there) and to make a $20 reissue fee.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:08 PM   #43
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
I care about MW. You, and many before you, have said voter ID laws are racist because some of the politicians who like it do so because it hurts minorities. If they truly are racist I want to end voter ID laws and MW.

In your "logic" of deciding what makes a law racist what is the difference between MW & voter ID?
MW and Voter ID are orthogonal. The racism of Voter ID has nothing to do with the racism of MW.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:09 PM   #44
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by Gustafson26 View Post
Every state, for a period of one year, should offer to give out FREE voter ID cards at select locations all around the state as long as the person can prove they are a US citizen and not a felon. If someone can't manage to stop and pick one up in 365 days that is their bad. And if one needs reissued due to it being lost, then have a phone # to call to verify some personal info (all their info would be there) and to make a $20 reissue fee.
Conservatives don't want to make it easy to vote or they wouldn't have started with the voter ID laws.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:09 PM   #45
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

These laws do disproportionately affect black voters and are a more or less open Republican strategy to reduce Democrat votes. Looking at all of the information, I do not see any other interpretation for this. The facts are the facts.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:12 PM   #46
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by Gustafson26 View Post
Every state, for a period of one year, should offer to give out FREE voter ID cards at select locations all around the state as long as the person can prove they are a US citizen and not a felon. If someone can't manage to stop and pick one up in 365 days that is their bad and they should have to purchase one. And if one needs reissued due to it being lost, then have a phone # to call to verify some personal info (all their info would be there) and to make a $20 reissue fee.
ya but republicans dont want to make it easy for ppl to vote. thats the whole point of this. republicans would fight this tooth and nail.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:22 PM   #47
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

Just one more thought I posted in the other thread that should be added here:

You say it's fake news, but just because some Harvard researchers questioned the methodology doesn't make the underlying facts wrong. Maybe the breadth is narrower than surmised. We need to drill down.
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Old 02-03-2017, 06:20 PM   #48
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
This is what's known as a "goalpost shift" and mickey, it's how we know that you are completely dishonest in your views.

Before you knew that 600,000 registered voters didn't have the ID Texas mandates they have in order to vote, the idea that the occurrence of voter fraud dwarfs the number of people who don't have ID was super important to you.

But when someone educated you on that being false, you didn't recalibrate your views, you just recalibrated the reasons why you believe the same thing you already believed before. Now it's not important whatsoever that hundreds of thousands of people don't have that ID, the important thing is that they could get a new one if they wanted (spoiler alert: that's also not always the case, but there's no point in going down that road with you because you've proven you don't really give a **** about the truth).

The only thing you truly believe in is never changing your beliefs, even when presented with evidence that the reasons why you believe those things are totally false. Tell us, mickey, why should any of us bother trying to teach a total waste of time like you?
I never shifted any goalposts. I was always focused on the number of people who want to vote, but can not due to not being able to get an ID. That article is just talking about people w/o an ID. It doesn't mention if these people want to vote or if they are able to get an ID if they want.
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Old 02-03-2017, 06:23 PM   #49
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by Gustafson26 View Post
Every state, for a period of one year, should offer to give out FREE voter ID cards at select locations all around the state as long as the person can prove they are a US citizen and not a felon. If someone can't manage to stop and pick one up in 365 days that is their bad and they should have to purchase one. And if one needs reissued due to it being lost, then have a phone # to call to verify some personal info (all their info would be there) and to make a $20 reissue fee.
Most of the liberals ITT would argue your proposed law is racist since it qualifies under both standards of if a law is racist:

1) does it disproportionately hurt one race
2) is thee someone out there that supports the law because of #1

Since some races are poorer than other races they will have less access to IDs should they lose theirs.
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Old 02-03-2017, 06:24 PM   #50
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Re: Voter ID and claims of fraud

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Originally Posted by LordJvK View Post
These laws do disproportionately affect black voters and are a more or less open Republican strategy to reduce Democrat votes. Looking at all of the information, I do not see any other interpretation for this. The facts are the facts.
MW laws do disproportionately affect black voters and are a more or less open Dem strategy to increase Democrat votes. Looking at all of the information, I do not see any other interpretation for this. The facts are the facts.

Listen, I know I sound like broken record, but every time a liberal spouts off that x, y or z is racist because it does a, b & c then I am also going to ask if m, n and o are also racist since they are also do a, b & c.
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