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Ultimate who did 9/11 thread Ultimate who did 9/11 thread
View Poll Results: Who was responsible for 9/11
Al Qaeda acting alone
167 34.65%
Al Qaeda with the help of Iran
30 6.22%
Saudi Arabia
20 4.15%
Israel
34 7.05%
The USA
128 26.56%
The Gingerbread man
70 14.52%
Other
33 6.85%

02-20-2014 , 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandz
Btw fun fact: Bin Laden never ever called his 'terror boy crew" Al Qaeda. It was Americans who invented this name for his terrorist organisation after the USA embassy bombings and Bin Laden just went with the flow...
citation?
02-20-2014 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidyMat
citation?
The acclaimed biography of Bin Laden by Yossef Bodansky, director of the US Congressional Task Force on Terrorism, hardly mentions the name al-Qaida. Written before September 11, it does so only to emphasise that al-Qaida is the wrong name altogether: "A lot of money is being spent on a rapidly expanding web of Islamist charities and social services, including the recently maligned al-Qaida. Bin Laden's first charity, al-Qaida, never amounted to more than a loose umbrella framework for supporting like-minded individuals and their causes. In the aftermath of the 1998 bombings in Nairobi and Dar-es-Salaam, al-Qaida has been portrayed in the west as a cohesive terrorist organisation, but it is not."

http://www.theguardian.com/books/200...ntasyandhorror

Last edited by yeSpiff; 02-20-2014 at 04:25 PM. Reason: idk
02-20-2014 , 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeSpiff
The acclaimed biography of Bin Laden by Yossef Bodansky, director of the US Congressional Task Force on Terrorism, hardly mentions the name al-Qaida. Written before September 11, it does so only to emphasise that al-Qaida is the wrong name altogether: "A lot of money is being spent on a rapidly expanding web of Islamist charities and social services, including the recently maligned al-Qaida. Bin Laden's first charity, al-Qaida, never amounted to more than a loose umbrella framework for supporting like-minded individuals and their causes. In the aftermath of the 1998 bombings in Nairobi and Dar-es-Salaam, al-Qaida has been portrayed in the west as a cohesive terrorist organisation, but it is not."

http://www.theguardian.com/books/200...ntasyandhorror
bahahahaha I call bs

So Bin Laden got the name from Asimov?

So the USA didn't "invent" the term like Bandz said.

Quote:
“If my doctor told me I had only six minutes to live, I wouldn't brood. I'd type a little faster.”

Last edited by MidyMat; 02-20-2014 at 04:36 PM. Reason: ...lol...I needed that...bahahaha
02-20-2014 , 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
LOL more lies. You learned about them from Loose Change.
I watched about 5 minutes of loose change before I had to shut it off. I don't believe in their theories and I did I would be open about it. You have no basis for accusing me of lying. You do that because what I say bothers you, you have little counter argument, and so you try to throw mud calling me a liar with zero basis. If what i say bothers you and you don't have an actual counter argument, then maybe you should think about surrendering your weak positions.

It really doesn't matter when I personally learned of the put options. They were discussed on mainstream TV in many instances and everyone here probably knows that. Everyone should watch this segment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUHZcUwHrJ8

I actually heard about the put options on a morning show and not this broadcast. What I didn't remember, which I was reminded of in getting a link to show that the put options were discussed on mainstream TV, is that these bets were also placed against the companies insuring the buildings and were placed all over the world in tandem.

The people who placed these bets had foreknowledge of the attacks. This says nothing about the identity of those placing the bets, so this is not the material from which to construct some elaborate theory. But people should be outraged that this has not been investigated in depth. The 9/11 commission hand waived this away, which is shameful. I think I will go with the financial analysts who say this is not coincidental, not by a long shot.
02-20-2014 , 05:38 PM
OK so like I said you were lying about "investigating" and I was absolutely right about how you're just regurgitating truther nonsense. Not that complicated, bro.
02-20-2014 , 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naked_Rectitude

Things like building 7, the Pentagon, NORAD, the commission report, etc., all point to something else besides what the official story reported. At the very least it's strange, but a lot of people seem to think that by suggesting there are some unanswered questions, you are automatically suggesting that it was planned and perpetrated by the US Government.
A lot of people here, almost all of them "educated" liberals, take that line against any credible threat to their world view. They think that the best way to silence discussion is to paint anyone who raises any question as a conspiratard. They attempt create a false dichotomy where you are either believing everything those in power say or you are a bat**** crazy conspiracy theorist. This is reminiscent of the Bush line "you are either with us or against us" in its attempt to eliminate the gray area, and denigrate those supposedly on the other side, and create an illusion of unity necessary to carry on with the program at hand. Like the Bush line, this is a desperate tactic used when actual arguments fail or don't exist.
02-20-2014 , 06:12 PM
I'm sure President Obama is secretly trying to figure out a way to stay in office beyond 2017 !

Luckily someone made a poll to confirm, almost half of Republicans (44%) agree.

I knew it

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/m...-theories.html

Last edited by yeSpiff; 02-20-2014 at 06:13 PM. Reason: proof
02-20-2014 , 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuces McKracken
A lot of people here, almost all of them "educated" liberals, take that line against any credible threat to their world view. They think that the best way to silence discussion is to paint anyone who raises any question as a conspiratard. They attempt create a false dichotomy where you are either believing everything those in power say or you are a bat**** crazy conspiracy theorist. This is reminiscent of the Bush line "you are either with us or against us" in its attempt to eliminate the gray area, and denigrate those supposedly on the other side, and create an illusion of unity necessary to carry on with the program at hand. Like the Bush line, this is a desperate tactic used when actual arguments fail or don't exist.
There are many questions, but few answers. One could guess I guess, but that don't really help much.
02-20-2014 , 06:20 PM
u know if passengers were allowed to open carry on planes, none of this would of happened.
02-20-2014 , 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by formula72
u know if passengers were allowed to open carry on planes, none of this would of happened.
Yeah, and bazookas
02-20-2014 , 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuces McKracken
When you appoint Kissinger to head an investigation, you are saying that you intend a coverup.
Well, **** dude, that is some compelling logic there.
02-20-2014 , 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
Again, my question to you is what steps have you taken to investigate "NORAD"(???) or whatever? My guess is nothing besides watching some truther Youtubes.
In undermining my questions by suggesting I'm uninformed, you're really just avoiding any issues. Do you really believe that I need to conduct an investigation into NORAD to analyze what they reported?

I find it odd that you would respond so defensively. All I'm suggesting is that there are some unanswered questions, they have been covered ad nauseam by people smarter than you or I.

In denying this, you come across just as bad, imo, as those you are criticizing. Simply saying that the specifics surrounding the event are peculiar, you are not automatically suggesting a conspiracy, just that they are peculiar.
02-20-2014 , 08:39 PM
Quote:
In undermining my questions by suggesting I'm uninformed, you're really just avoiding any issues. Do you really believe that I need to conduct an investigation into NORAD to analyze what they reported?
This sentence makes it pretty clear that you don't know what NORAD is, but you've heard truthers talk about it so you assume there must be something up with it. Spoiler alert: there totally isn't. I actually know the conspiracy theory you're trying to reference here, but you're too ****ing stupid to even spit it out correctly so we get this gibberish, and I'm not going to help you out by holding your hand. Just know, truthers are simple and stupid people, so the Rational/Skeptic/Debunker movement is always always always going to be a step ahead of them.

If you were reading those websites instead of conspiracy theory blogs, your sincere questions would get answered right quickly. But, of course, you have no sincere questions, just a desperate insecurity and a need to feel smarter than the sheeple.

Quote:
I find it odd that you would respond so defensively. All I'm suggesting is that there are some unanswered questions, they have been covered ad nauseam by people smarter than you or I.
Speak for yourself, dude.

Quote:
In denying this, you come across just as bad, imo, as those you are criticizing. Simply saying that the specifics surrounding the event are peculiar, you are not automatically suggesting a conspiracy, just that they are peculiar.
What specifics are peculiar? Note: you not being able to explain something you have put ZERO EFFORT into understanding is not peculiar at all. It's actually the expected outcome.

Last edited by FlyWf; 02-20-2014 at 08:51 PM.
02-20-2014 , 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuces McKracken
. But people should be outraged that this has not been investigated in depth. The 9/11 commission hand waived this away, which is shameful. I think I will go with the financial analysts who say this is not coincidental, not by a long shot.
By the way, just to prove again that Deuces is lying about everything in a desperate attempt to make himself feel special, here's what that commission "handwave"
Highly publicized allegations of insider trading in advance of 9/11 generally rest on reports of unusual pre-9/11 trading activity in companies whose stock plummeted after the attacks. Some unusual trading did in fact occur, but each such trade proved to have an innocuous explanation. For example, the volume of put options—investments that pay off only when a stock drops in price—surged in the parent companies of United Airlines on
September 6 and American Airlines on September 10—highly suspicious trading on its face.Yet, further investigation has revealed that the trading had no connection with 9/11.A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10. Similarly,much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10 was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these trades.These examples typify the evidence examined by the investigation.The SEC and the FBI, aided by other agencies and the securities industry, devoted enormous resources to investigating this issue, including securing the cooperation of many foreign governments.These investigators have found that the apparently suspicious consistently proved innocuous. Joseph Cella interview (Sept. 16, 2003; May 7, 2004; May 10–11, 2004); FBI briefing (Aug. 15, 2003); SEC memo, Division of Enforcement to SEC Chair and Commissioners,“Pre-September 11, 2001 Trading Review,” May 15, 2002; Ken Breen interview
(Apr. 23, 2004); Ed G. interview (Feb. 3, 2004).
Footnote 130, Chapter 5, 9/11 Commission Report

Terrorist Financing Staff Monograph
Appendix B: Securities Trading
This appendix describes the staff and U.S. government investigations into the issue of whether anyone with foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks profited through securities trading, and explains the conclusion in the Commission’s final report that extensive government investigation has revealed no evidence of such illicit trading.
Almost since 9/11 itself, there have been consistent reports that massive “insider trading” preceded the attacks, enabling persons apparently affiliated with al Qaeda to reap huge profits. The Commission has found no evidence to support these reports. To the contrary, exhaustive investigation by federal law enforcement, in conjunction with the securities industry, has found no evidence that anyone with advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks profited through securities transactions.
Commission Staff Investigation
Commission staff had unrestricted access to the U.S. government officials who led and conducted the investigation into securities trading in advance of 9/11. In addition to interviewing the key personnel, Commission staff reviewed the nonpublic government reports summarizing the investigative results as well as backup data, including spreadsheets, memoranda and other analyses, and reports of interviews with traders, securities industry participants, and other witnesses. We obtained and reviewed the reports of investigations done by certain major nongovernmental securities industries bodies who share responsibility with the government for monitoring securities trading in U.S. markets, including the New York Stock Exchange and the National Association of Securities Dealers Regulation, and interviewed witnesses from a key private-sector entity. Commission staff also reviewed information provided by foreign securities regulators, interviewed German law enforcement officials, and interviewed U.S. law enforcement personnel regarding their contacts with their foreign counterparts on securities trading.
In addition, Commission staff drew on its review of extensive classified intelligence concerning al Qaeda and how it manages its operations and its finances, as well as debriefings of al Qaeda detainees, including 9/11 plot leader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other plot participants. This information proved useful in evaluating how closely held al Qaeda kept the 9/11 operation and the likelihood it would seek to profit from the attacks through securities trading.
The U.S. Government Investigation of Trading in the United States
The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the FBI, with the involvement of the Department of Justice, conducted the investigation of the allegation that there was illicit trading in advance of 9/11; numerous other agencies played a supporting role. 166
The SEC’s chief of the Office of Market Surveillance initiated an investigation into pre9/11 trading on September 12, 2001. At a multi-agency meeting on September 17, at FBI headquarters, the SEC agreed to lead the insider trading investigation, keeping the FBI involved as necessary. The Department of Justice assigned a white-collar crime prosecutor from the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Brooklyn to work full-time on the investigation; he relocated to Washington, D.C., on September 18.
The SEC undertook a massive investigation, which at various times involved more than 40 staff members from the SEC’s Division of Enforcement and Office of International Affairs. The SEC also took the lead on coordinating intensive investigations by the self-regulatory organizations (SROs) that share responsibility for monitoring the U.S. securities markets, including, among others, the New York Stock Exchange, the American Stock Exchange, the National Association of Securities Dealers Regulation, and the Chicago Board Options Exchange. The investigation focused on securities of companies or industries that could have been expected to suffer economically from the terrorist attacks. Thus, the investigators analyzed trading in the following sectors: airlines, insurance, financial services, defense and aerospace, security services, and travel and leisure services, as well as companies with substantial operations in the area of the World Trade Center. The investigation also included broad-based funds that could have been affected by a major shock to the U.S. economy. Ultimately, the investigators analyzed trading in 103 individual companies and 32 index or exchange-traded funds and examined more than 9.5 million securities transactions.
The investigators reviewed any trading activity that resulted in substantial profit from the terrorist attacks. Investments that profited from dropping stock prices drew great scrutiny, including short selling167 and the purchase of put options.168 The SEC has long experience in investigating insider trading violations, which can involve the use of these techniques by those who know of an impending event that will make stock prices fall.
The investigators also sought to determine who profited from well-timed investments in industries that benefited from the terrorist attacks, such as the stock of defense and security companies, and who timely liquidated substantial holdings in companies likely to suffer from the attacks.
The SEC investigators reviewed voluminous trading records to identify accounts that made trades that led to profits as a result of the attacks. The SEC followed up on any such trades by obtaining documents and, where appropriate, interviewing the traders to understand the rationale for the trades. The SEC also referred to the FBI any trade that resulted in substantial profit from the attacks—a much lower threshold for a criminal referral than it would normally employ. Consequently, the FBI conducted its own independent interviews of many of the potentially suspicious traders. The SROs, which have extensive market surveillance departments, played a key role in the SEC investigation by providing information and, in some cases, detailed reports to the commission. In addition, the SEC directly contacted 20 of the largest broker-dealers and asked them to survey their trading desks for any evidence of illicit trading activity. It also asked the Securities Industry Association—the broker-dealer trade group—to canvass its members for the same purpose.
The SEC investigation had built-in redundancies to ensure that any suspicious trading would be caught. For example, the SEC reviewed massive transaction records to detect any suspicious option trading and also obtained reports, known as the Large Option Position Reports and Open Interest Distribution Reports, that identified the holders of substantial amounts of options without regard to when those options were purchased. Similarly, to ensure full coverage, the SEC obtained information from a number of entities that play a role in facilitating short sales. Between these efforts, the work of the SROs, and the outreach to industry, the chief SEC investigator expressed great confidence that the SEC investigation had detected any potentially suspicious trade.
No Evidence of Illicit Trading in the United States
The U.S. government investigation unequivocally concluded that there was no evidence of illicit trading in the U.S. markets with knowledge of the terrorist attacks. The Commission staff, after an independent review of the government investigation, has discovered no reason to doubt this conclusion.
To understand our finding, it is critical to understand the transparency of the U.S. markets. No one can make a securities trade in the U.S. markets without leaving a paper trail that the SEC can easily access through its regulatory powers. Moreover, broker-dealers must maintain certain basic information on their customers. It is, of course, entirely possible to trade through an offshore company, or a series of nominee accounts and shell companies, a strategy that can make the beneficial owner hard to determine. Still, the investigators could always detect the initial trade, even if they could not determine the beneficial owner. Any suspicious profitable trading through such accounts would be starkly visible. The investigators of the 9/11 trades never found any blind alleys caused by shell companies, offshore accounts, or anything else; they were able to investigate the suspicious trades they identified. Every suspicious trade was determined to be part of a legitimate trading strategy totally unrelated to the terrorist attacks.
Many of the public reports concerning insider trading before 9/11 focused on the two airline companies most directly involved: UAL Corp., the parent company of United Airlines, and AMR Corp., the parent company of American Airlines. Specifically, many people have correctly pointed out that unusually high volumes of put options traded in UAL on September 6–7 and in AMR on September 10.169
When the markets opened on September 17, AMR fell 40 percent and UAL fell 43 percent. The suspicious options trading before the attacks fueled speculation that al Qaeda had taken advantage of the U.S. markets to make massive profits from its murderous attacks. The allegations had appeal on their face—just as al Qaeda used our sophisticated transportation system to attack us, it appeared to have used our sophisticated markets to finance itself and provide money for more attacks. But we conclude that this scenario simply did not happen.
Although this report will not discuss each of the trades that profited from the 9/11 attacks, some of the larger trades, particularly those cited in the media as troubling, are illustrative and typical both of the nature of the government investigation into the trades and of the innocent nature of the trading. The put trading in AMR and UAL is a case in point: it appeared that somebody made big money by betting UAL and AMR stock prices were going to collapse, yet closer inspection revealed that the transactions were part of an innocuous trading strategy.
The UAL trading on September 6 is a good example. On that day alone, the UAL put option volume was much higher than any surrounding day and exceeded the call option volume by more than 20 times—highly suspicious numbers on their face.170 The SEC quickly discovered, however, that a single U.S. investment adviser had purchased 95 percent of the UAL put option volume for the day. The investment adviser certainly did not fit the profile of an al Qaeda operative: it was based in the United States, registered with the SEC, and managed several hedge funds with $5.3 billion under management. In interviews by the SEC, both the CEO of the adviser and the trader who executed the trade explained that they—and not any client—made the decision to buy the put as part of a trading strategy based on a bearish view of the airline industry. They held bearish views for a number of reasons, including recently released on-time departure figures, which suggested the airlines were carrying fewer passengers, and recently disclosed news by AMR reflecting poor business fundamentals. In pursuit of this strategy, the adviser sold short a number of airline shares between September 6 and September 10; its transactions included the fortunate purchase of UAL puts. The adviser, however, also bought 115,000 shares of AMR on September 10, believing that their price already reflected the recently released financial information and would not fall any further. Those shares dropped significantly when the markets reopened after the attacks. Looking at the totality of the adviser’s circumstances, as opposed to just the purchase of the puts, convinced the SEC that it had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks or al Qaeda. Still, the SEC referred the trade to the FBI, which also conducted its own investigation and reached the same conclusion.
The AMR put trading on September 10 further reveals how trading that looks highly suspicious at first blush can prove innocuous. The put volume of AMR on September 10 was unusually high and actually exceeded the call volume by a ratio of 6:1—again, highly suspicious on its face. The SEC traced much of the surge in volume to a California investment advice newsletter, distributed by email and fax on Sunday, September 9, which advised its subscribers to purchase a particular type of AMR put options. The SEC interviewed 28 individuals who purchased these types of AMR puts on September 10, and found that 26 of them cited the newsletter as the reason for their transaction. Another 27 purchasers were listed as subscribers of the newsletter. The SEC interviewed the author of the newsletter, a U.S. citizen, who explained his investment strategy analysis, which had nothing to do with foreknowledge of 9/11. Other put option volume on September 10 was traced to similarly innocuous trades.
Another good example concerns a suspicious UAL put trade on September 7, 2001. A single trader bought more than one-third of the total puts purchased that day, establishing a position that proved very profitable after 9/11. Moreover, it turns out that the same trader had a short position in UAL calls—another strategy that would pay off if the price of UAL dropped. Investigation, however, identified the purchaser as a well-established New York hedge fund with $2 billion under management. Setting aside the unlikelihood of al Qaeda having a relationship with a major New York hedge fund, these trades looked facially suspicious. But further examination showed the fund also owned 29,000 shares of UAL stock at the time—all part of a complex, computer-driven trading strategy. As a result of these transactions, the fund actually lost $85,000 in value when the market reopened. Had the hedge fund wanted to profit from the attacks, it would not have retained the UAL shares.
These examples were typical. The SEC and the FBI investigated all of the put option purchases in UAL and AMR, drawing on multiple and redundant sources of information to ensure complete coverage. All profitable option trading was investigated and resolved. There was no evidence of illicit trading and no unexplained or mysterious trading. Moreover, there was no evidence that profits from any profitable options trading went uncollected.171
The options trading in UAL and AMR was typical of the entire investigation. In all sectors and companies whose trades looked suspicious because of their timing and profitability, including short selling of UAL, AMR, and other airline stocks, close scrutiny revealed absolutely no evidence of foreknowledge. The pattern is repeated over and over. For example, the FBI investigated a trader who bought a substantial position in put options in AIG Insurance Co. shortly before 9/11. Viewed in isolation, the trade looked highly suspicious, especially when AIG stock plummeted after 9/11. The FBI found that the trade had been made by a fund manager to hedge a long position of 4.2 million shares in the AIG common stock. The fund manager owned a significant amount of AIG stock, but the fund had a very low tax basis in the stock (that is, it had been bought long ago and had appreciated significantly over time). Selling even some of it would have created a massive tax liability. Thus, the fund manager chose to hedge his position through a put option purchase. After 9/11, the fund profited substantially from its investment in puts. At the same time, however, it suffered a substantial loss on the common stock, and overall lost money as a result of the attacks.
In sum, the investigation found absolutely no evidence that any trading occurred with foreknowledge of 9/11. The transparency of the U.S. securities markets almost ensures that any such trading would be detectable by investigators. Even if the use of some combination of offshore accounts, shell companies, and false identification obscured the identity of the traders themselves, the unexplained trade would stand out like a giant red flag. The absence of any such flags corroborates the conclusion that there is no evidence any such trading occurred. Indeed, the leaders of both the SEC and FBI investigations into pre-9/11 trading expressed great confidence in this conclusion.
International Investigation
There is also no evidence that any illicit trading occurred overseas. Through its Office of International Affairs, the SEC sought the assistance of numerous foreign countries with active securities markets. The FBI also engaged with foreign law enforcement officials about overseas trading. There are two issues to consider with respect to the international investigation: overseas trading in U.S. securities and trading of foreign securities in overseas markets.
Trading of U.S. securities overseas
The SEC sought the assistance of countries where there was significant trading of U.S. securities. Each of these countries had previously entered into information sharing agreements with the SEC to cooperate in securities investigations, and each willingly cooperated in the 9/11 investigation. According to the SEC, there is generally little trading of U.S. securities overseas, since U.S. securities trade primarily in U.S. markets. Thus, unusual trading in U.S. securities would not have been very hard for foreign regulators to detect. Each country the SEC contacted conducted an investigation and reported back to the SEC that there was no trading in U.S. securities in their jurisdiction that appeared to have been influenced by foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks.
The foreign investigators also helped investigate suspicious trading in the U.S. from offshore accounts. For example, the SEC investigation revealed that shortly before 9/11 an offshore account had taken a short position in a fund that tracked one of the major U.S. market indices—an investment that profited when the U.S. market declined. After 9/11, the offshore investor closed out the position, reaping $5 million in profit. The SEC’s Office of International Affairs solicited help from a European country to investigate further. Although this trade was highly suspicious on its face, the European country’s investigation revealed that this investor was an extremely wealthy European national who often speculated by taking short positions in the U.S. market. In fact, the same investor had employed this strategy to lose $8 million in the six months preceding 9/11.
Trading of foreign securities
There is also no evidence that insider trading took place in the stock of any foreign company. The SEC asked its foreign counterparts to investigate trading in securities that trade primarily on foreign markets subject to foreign regulation. Indeed, a number of companies that suffered serious economic losses from the 9/11 attacks were foreign companies, which traded mainly on foreign markets. In particular, the insurance companies with the largest potential losses included Munich Reinsurance Co., Swiss Reinsurance Co., and Allianz AG, all foreign-based companies that primarily traded overseas.172 In addition to the SEC, the FBI team investigating the financial aspects of the 9/11 plot frequently dealt with foreign law enforcement officials after 9/11 and raised the trading issue.173 Neither the SEC nor the FBI was informed of any evidence of any illicit trading in advance of 9/11 in any foreign securities.
Shortly after 9/11, Ernst Welteke, president of the German Central Bank, made a number of public statements that insider trading occurred in airline and insurance company stock, and also in gold and oil futures. These preliminary claims were never confirmed. In fact, German officials publicly backtracked fairly soon after Mr. Welteke’s statement was issued. On September 27, a spokesman for the German securities regulator, BAWe (Bundesaufsichtsamt für den Wertpapierhandel), declared that while the investigation was continuing, “there is no evidence that anyone who had knowledge of the attacks before they were committed used it to make financial transactions.”174 On December 3, 2001, a spokesman for the BAWe said its investigation had revealed no evidence of illicit trading in advance of 9/11 and that the case remained open pending new information. The spokesman said separate investigations by state authorities had also yielded no information and had been closed. 175
Commission staff interviewed German law enforcement officials who said that exhaustive investigation in Germany revealed no evidence of illicit trading. Moreover, both SEC and FBI officials involved in the trading investigation told the Commission staff that German investigators had privately communicated to them that there was no evidence of illicit trading in Germany before 9/11. The FBI legal attaché in Berlin forwarded a lead to the German BKA (Bundeskriminalamt), which reported back that the trading allegations lacked merit. It appears, then, that Welteke’s initial comments were simply ill-considered and unsupported by the evidence.176
Other investigation corroborates the conclusion of no illicit trading
Since 9/11, the U.S. government has developed extensive evidence about al Qaeda and the 9/11 attacks. The collected information includes voluminous documents and computers seized in raids in Afghanistan and throughout the world. Moreover, the United States and its allies have captured and interrogated hundreds of al Qaeda operatives and supporters, including the mastermind of the 9/11 plot and the three key plot facilitators. No information has been uncovered indicating that al Qaeda profited by trading securities in advance of 9/11. To the contrary, the evidence—including extensive materials reviewed by Commission staff—all leads to the conclusion that knowledge of the plot was closely held by the top al Qaeda leadership and the key planners. It strains credulity to believe that al Qaeda would have jeopardized its most important and secretive operation or any of its key personnel by trying to profit from securities speculation.
Footnotes
166. The SEC is an independent federal agency entrusted with enforcing the federal securities laws. Its Division of Enforcement has extensive experience in investigating insider trading. Because the SEC lacks authority to bring criminal cases, it regularly works jointly with the FBI and DOJ, as it did in this case, on potentially criminal securities law violations.
167. Short selling is a strategy that profits from a decline in stock price. A short seller borrows stock from a broker dealer and sells it on the open market. At some point in the future, he closes the transaction by buying back the stock and returning it to the lending broker dealer.
168. A put option is an investment that profits when the underlying stock price falls. A put option contract gives its owner the right to sell the underlying stock at a specified strike price for a certain period of time. If the actual price drops below the strike price, the owner of the put profits because he can buy stock cheaper than the price for which he can sell it. By contrast, a call option contract is an investment that profits when the underlying stock price rises. A call option contract gives its owner the right to buy the underlying stock at a specified strike price for a certain time period. People illicitly trading on inside information often have used options because they allow the trader to leverage an initial investment, so that a relatively small investment can generate huge profits.
169. See, e.g., September 18, 2001 Associated Press Report.
170. A high ratio of puts to calls means that on that day far more money was being bet that the stock price would fall than that the stock price would rise. Such a ratio is a potential indicator of insider trading— although it can also prove to have entirely innocuous explanations, as in this case.
171. The press has reported this claim, and the allegation even found its way into the congressional testimony concerning terrorist financing of a former government official. The government investigation would have detected such traders because the investigators focused on people who purchased profitable positions— regardless of when or whether or when they closed out the position. Moreover, officials at the SEC and the Options Clearing Corporation, a private entity that processes options trading, pointed out that any profitable options positions are automatically exercised upon the expiration date unless the customer explicitly directed otherwise. Any direction not to exercise profitable options is a highly unusual event, which the OCC double-checks by contacting the broker who gave them such instruction. The OCC personnel had no recollection of any such contacts after 9/11.
172. According to the SEC’s Chief, Market Surveillance, the countries with the most significant relevant trading of foreign corporations stock were the UK and Germany. The UK quickly and publicly reported it had found no illicit trading. See e.g., J. Moore, The Times, Bin Ladin did not Deal (October 17, 2001) (Chairman of Financial Services Authority reported that investigation failed to reveal evidence of irregular share dealings in London in advance of 9/11). Other countries publicly reported similar findings. See e.g., Associated Press Worldstream, Suspicion dispelled of insider trading in KLM shares before September 11 attacks (reporting conclusion of Dutch government investigation that sharp drop in share prices of the national airline days before 9/11 were not caused by people who knew of terrorist attacks).
173. The chief of the FBI team also raised the issue with CIA and asked it to be alert for any intelligence on illicit trading; he received no such reports from the CIA.
174. Agence France Presse (Sept. 27, 2001).
175. See Australian Financial Review (Dec 3, 2001).
176. The SEC investigated trading of American Depository Receipts (ADRs) in foreign companies. ADRs are receipts issued by a U.S. bank for the shares of a foreign corporation held by the bank. ADRs publicly trade on U.S. markets. This investigation revealed no illicit trading.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_...errFin_App.pdf
02-20-2014 , 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
This sentence makes it pretty clear that you don't know what NORAD is, but you've heard truthers talk about it so you assume there must be something up with it. Spoiler alert: there totally isn't. I actually know the conspiracy theory you're trying to reference here, but you're too ****ing stupid to even spit it out correctly so we get this gibberish, and I'm not going to help you out by holding your hand. Just know, truthers are simple and stupid people, so the Rational/Skeptic/Debunker movement is always always always going to be a step ahead of them.

If you were reading those websites instead of conspiracy theory blogs, your sincere questions would get answered right quickly. But, of course, you have no sincere questions, just a desperate insecurity and a need to feel smarter than the sheeple.
I'm not interested in getting into a back-and-forth with you, and I find the ease in which you imply that I'm ignorant very childish. Frankly, the fact that you immediately resort to ad hominems is sad.

We could have had an adult conversation, I am more than willing to listen to reason and to hear your out, but I guess you're more interested in assaulting anyone that disagrees with you.

I know you're trying to keep up a persona in front of your peers, but look at the things you are saying to someone you don't know, who's been nothing but polite. It's disappointing.

Anyway, cheers, we'll leave it at that I guess.
02-20-2014 , 09:45 PM
Deuces,

throughout this thread you have basically said "I haven't really investigated, but I don't believe it." Why should anybody care at all about your (admitted) ignorant opinion?

As Fly said, you are behaving like every other truther i've ever seen, real research is too hard but "HEY DOESN'T THAT SEEM WEIRD?!"
02-21-2014 , 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
Deuces,

throughout this thread you have basically said "I haven't really investigated, but I don't believe it." Why should anybody care at all about your (admitted) ignorant opinion?

As Fly said, you are behaving like every other truther i've ever seen, real research is too hard but "HEY DOESN'T THAT SEEM WEIRD?!"
I am basing my skepticism about the state's version on uncontroversial facts. Some of them you might not find significant but I do. Trolly is apparently cool with Kissinger heading the 9/11 commission. Any honest, intelligent, educated person (and I mean ANY) would think that stinks to high heaven. So in that case what is there for me to "investigate"? Kissinger's record? I'm pretty familiar with it. Whether or not he was initially head of the commission? I believe the news is very accurate when reporting such facts so I don't know how your criticism is valid on that example.

Or take the put options. Am I supposed to investigate whether that happened or what it means? as far as whether it happened, I believe the news reports and I trust the media generally in that their facts are valid facts. Am I supposed to "investigate" the actual person who took those options in order to have an opinion on it whether or not they indicate advanced knowledge? I really don't know which "investigate you mean. I outlined the basic facts. It looks like Fly cut and pasted what the 911 commission had to say about it. I suppose that is all supposed to tell me that it was all some million to one coincidence? There is nothing I can think of they could say that would make me believe that. But I will read it anyway since I can't think of everything.

Or take the pentagon footage. I take it as a given that we all agree that there is footage being withheld. I think this is suspicious generally. Why not just release the damn footage? So what is there for me to "investigate" here?

On most items I'm simply pointing to accepted facts I see as incongruous and stating why. These are facts that we have without the benefit of a real forensic investigation involving the examination of physical evidence, interviews, interrogations, reviewing surveillance, following paper trails and transactions etc. Imagine what kind of BS we would find if we actually looked hard. Ordinary citizens, which I am, don't have the resources or expertise to conduct such investigations. That's why we pay trillions of dollars for our government to provide defense and justice. Unfortunately the people who take this money are so venal and inept that we get neither.
02-21-2014 , 04:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
By the way, just to prove again that Deuces is lying about everything in a desperate attempt to make himself feel special, here's what that commission "handwave"
You know you messed up right?

Typically when someone thinks that someone else is misinformed, they call them misinformed or mistaken or wrong or even stupid- something along those lines. So it's weird that you are calling me a liar because I claim the 9/11 commission report is hand waiving away the insider trading allegations. Then you ratchet up the weird by serving up a wall of text which is literally nothing but hand waiving with a side of extra verbosity.

There is a reason the commission report has a bad rap and it's not hard to see that when you realize what is there and what isn't there by actually reading it. My guess is you haven't and that is the more flattering of the possible accusations. The other is that you are one checkmated by Amway recruiter level "reasoning" i.e. vague but reassuring sounding statements using words which sound nifty to you.

Below are a lot of words from the commission that can be summarized in one sentence:

The 9/11 commission talked to the government and the government said it's all good.

That is what is there. The commission "reviewed reports of the investigation" done by the government and talked to some people. We aren't supposed to care about what report, talked to who specifically, or any meaningful specifics.

What isn't there is any actual investigation by the commission themselves or the actual investigation done by the government. What isn't there is any actual direct source material from the investigation or critical analysis from the investigation or about the investigation. In other words it's all hand waiving.

Only time to look at the first paragraph now but I will go over the rest later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
Highly publicized allegations of insider trading in advance of 9/11 generally rest on reports of unusual pre-9/11 trading activity in companies whose stock plummeted after the attacks. Some unusual trading did in fact occur, but each such trade proved to have an innocuous explanation. For example, the volume of put options—investments that pay off only when a stock drops in price—surged in the parent companies of United Airlines on
September 6 and American Airlines on September 10—highly suspicious trading on its face.Yet, further investigation has revealed that the trading had no connection with 9/11.

A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10.
For those of you like Fly, who are led on till the break of dawn by the promise of the secret to instant millions in real estate, I'll mercifully spoil your hopeless anticipation: at no point are the identities of any of the investors revealed. Nor is it revealed why them having ties to al qaeda is inconceivable or who characterized the ties that way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
Similarly,much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10 was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these trades.
What newsletter? Who is the distributor? What legal cover is provided by a newsletter format? Why not at least publish the full interview with the newsletter distributor? This is hand waving: "some newsletter recommended it". Oh, ok then. This actually is elaborated on a bit later in another hand wave. It's like a fancy, two handed hand wave. But don't be fooled. You never see the evidence and you never hear the reasoning; you're just told what to think.

I did find an actual academic paper on the subject. If there are others actual academic studies that disagree please link them. This one does come to the conclusion that the trading activity does indicate investors had inside knowledge of the attacks:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/full/10.1086/503645

The author implies that there is a consensus in the financial analyst community that agrees with his findings. That might explain why New York City is so skeptical of the official version as a region.
02-21-2014 , 06:06 AM
I've seen it work on other political forums, but if coincitards were able to be civil, I wonder if this group could pull off a mock trial on the matter. Replete with a jury and judge. ... and a verdict, with short essay.

Burden of proof would have to be established, for sure. We'd also have to find/pick a fair judge to keep things moving, and an impartial jury, if that kind of person truly exists regarding the greatest crime in U.S. history.

I suppose the first thing we'd have to do is get the coincidence theorists to agree to resist the urge to baselessly troll before the process actually ends. Anyone interested?
02-21-2014 , 09:02 AM
Lol at "consensus in the financial market community that these attacks were known in advance". Just...no.
02-21-2014 , 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuces McKracken
You know you messed up right?

Typically when someone thinks that someone else is misinformed, they call them misinformed or mistaken or wrong or even stupid- something along those lines. So it's weird that you are calling me a liar because I claim the 9/11 commission report is hand waiving away the insider trading allegations. Then you ratchet up the weird by serving up a wall of text which is literally nothing but hand waiving with a side of extra verbosity.
You were lying. You're still lying. You claimed that the 9/11 commission report "hand waived" the put options, but you admitted ITT that you had never read the report and dismissed it as insufficient. Also you still don't know how to ****ing spell "wave".

Also, special note: First the 9/11 commission "hand waived" the put options issue. Whoops, actually, no, they investigated it in depth and wrote extensively about the issue. Well, now the problem is a WALL OF TEXT.

You probably read some truther said that and assumed he was telling the truth. And you thought you could snow us. Mother****er my Google works. Not my fault yours doesn't.

Quote:
What newsletter? Who is the distributor? What legal cover is provided by a newsletter format? Why not at least publish the full interview with the newsletter distributor? This is hand waving: "some newsletter recommended it". Oh, ok then. This actually is elaborated on a bit later in another hand wave. It's like a fancy, two handed hand wave. But don't be fooled. You never see the evidence and you never hear the reasoning; you're just told what to think.
Again, if you were sincerely confused and interested, you'd do the minimal ****ing effort of finding out that newsletter was Options Hotline, edited by Steve Sarnoff. The rest of your questions are ****ing nonsense. "What legal cover"? Cover from what?

You mean editor or writer and not distributor, as well. You use the wrong words because you're ignorant.

At the end of the day:
Quote:
It looks like Fly cut and pasted what the 911 commission had to say about it. I suppose that is all supposed to tell me that it was all some million to one coincidence? There is nothing I can think of they could say that would make me believe that.
No ****ing ****. Just like I said. You're a conspiritard. Nothing is ever good enough for you, because it's not like you sincerely don't understand. Deuces, you desperately want to feel smart but your own limited faculties have denied you that, so you believe in bull**** conspiracy theories in a desperate search for that feeling of validation.


Deuces, why didn't you learn the name of the options newsletter? It literally took me 15 seconds. 15 ****ing seconds. I didn't know it when I opened this thread, you asked, I found out in less than a minute. Why couldn't you do that for yourself? What is wrong with how your brain works to explain your inability to do basic research into issues that allegedly trouble you greatly?

Last edited by FlyWf; 02-21-2014 at 03:01 PM.
02-21-2014 , 02:57 PM
Quote:
Or take the pentagon footage. I take it as a given that we all agree that there is footage being withheld. I think this is suspicious generally. Why not just release the damn footage? So what is there for me to "investigate" here?
Another lie, by the way. Deuces, I know you're stupid, but we're not. Don't ****ing lie to us so shamelessly. LOL "if you assume all the premises of my ****ing ******ed theory that a missile hit the Pentagon, there's totally a CONSPIRACY AFOOT". No ****, dude, the Pentagon would definitely need to hide the footage of a tomahawk fired from a submarine or whatever. And then also need to do something with the plane? WHATEVER JUST ASKING QUESTIONS LOL

And make no mistake, Deuces, when you talk about the missing footage, you are affirmatively endorsing the theory that something besides an airliner struck the Pentagon on 9/11. Explicitly so. You know what sort of person thinks a missile hit the Pentagon on 9/11, Deuces?

Last edited by FlyWf; 02-21-2014 at 03:07 PM.
02-21-2014 , 03:05 PM
I mean, again, there's just reams and reams of investigation done about the put options. http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00139.pdf

OH NO DEUCES IF ONLY AT SOME POINT IN THE PAST 12 YEARS YOU HAD THOUGHT TO EXPAND YOUR INVESTIGATION OUTSIDE OF LOOSE CHANGE YOU WOULDN'T LOOK SO DUMB RIGHT NOW. HOW BIZARRE THAT YOU NEVER THOUGHT TO EVEN TRY
02-21-2014 , 03:13 PM
Deuces described himself as the single best poster at debunking 9/11 conspiracy claims so surely it cant be correct that he refuses to read basic documents.

      
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