Train derails. Blows up half a ****ing town in Quebec - Page 2 - Politics version 7.0 -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

The train was parked for the night, with one locomotive still 'on' so that its brakes kept the train from rolling. There was a fire in the middle of the night (maybe that's the sabotage?) and either the fire department or the conductor turned off the locomotive disengaging the brakes.

At some point the train started rolling, and the town was ~10km away - and unfortunately it was downhill and there was a curve in the track in the town. So the cars gathered speed until they hit the corner and derailed.

This seems like a system design defect, surely with brakes the default setting should be 'on'. Like air brakes.

07-11-2013 , 06:04 AM

#27

jjshabado

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gin 'n Tonic

This seems like a system design defect, surely with brakes the default setting should be 'on'. Like air brakes.

My main stream media education has told me that the air brakes for the train require the locomotive to be running since its actually forcing air through the whole train to each car.

There are manual brakes that don't require a running engine but they have to be set manually by the conductor going down the train and setting each one individually. It looks like in this case the conductor didn't do that.

07-11-2013 , 12:07 PM

#28

longmissedblind

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didn't there used to be a position called "brakeman" whose sole responsibility is stopping the train and keeping it stopped? Maybe payroll cuts, but there should be some sort of redundancy on brakes right?

07-11-2013 , 06:50 PM

#29

simplicitus

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Quote:

Originally Posted by longmissedblind

Meh, that would require being able to foresee human error.

07-11-2013 , 09:39 PM

#30

jjshabado

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Well, there is some redundancy. You have the air brakes powered by the locomotive and the manual hand brakes set by the conductor. Either of those, I assume, is enough to prevent what happened.

Here, like most accidents, you had multiple **** ups.

07-11-2013 , 11:46 PM

#31

tzwien

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Reminds me of the movie Super 8. Probably had some sort of alien on there.

07-12-2013 , 05:41 AM

#32

Mr.mmmKay

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it was AAAAAALLLLLLLIEEEEEENNNNNNSSSSSS

07-12-2013 , 10:48 AM

#33

longmissedblind

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I guess I mean redundancy in systems and in operations, you know... a second set of eyes. The purpose of that type of redundancy is exactly to foresee human error. Obviously an extra $80,000 in payroll to offset a billion dollar catastrophe would pay for itself.

Hindsight tho.

07-12-2013 , 11:06 AM

#34

jjshabado

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Yeah. The news has talked about how this company got a special exemption for only requiring one person running the train instead of the standard two. I don't know why they got the exemption but it probably would have prevented this in what you're saying about how it likely would have ensured at least one set of brakes was on.

07-12-2013 , 02:39 PM

#35

[Phill]

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There is so much human error from the design stage of the train through to the processes of operation and finally landing at the feet of the driver.

I dont think the name of the game should be finding one way this could have been prevented. Just keep counting and fix them all where possible.

But definitely there should be some part of the training and operation process where a guy cannot just leave a train unattended while he goes to get some sleep even if he had followed protocol to secure the thing so it wont run down a hill and kill a bunch of people.

07-12-2013 , 03:19 PM

#36

jjshabado

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I suspect the investigation will follow the NTSB model where they go very deep and thoroughly into the causes of the accident.

07-18-2013 , 12:30 AM

#37

andyhop

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jjshabado

My main stream media education has told me that the air brakes for the train require the locomotive to be running since its actually forcing air through the whole train to each car.

I am fairly certain that this will turn out to be wrong because train braking systems don't work this way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjshabado

Another person may help prevent things like this happening but it isn't going to stop them completely, I know of a similar run away of wagons happening where there were 2 employees present at my company.

Last edited by andyhop; 07-18-2013 at 12:53 AM.

07-18-2013 , 01:05 AM

#38

andyhop

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From reading a few rail forums it seems that the train had a normal Westinghouse brake system so the loco not running would not release the wagon brakes , it would actually be more likely to put them on harder with time as air leaked from the brake pipe.

07-18-2013 , 04:44 AM

#39

jjshabado

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Quote:

Originally Posted by andyhop

You're never going to prevent all accidents. It's just finding the right balance.

07-18-2013 , 04:46 AM

#40

jjshabado

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Quote:

Originally Posted by andyhop

This seems more reasonable and I'm not at all surprised if the MSM ****ed up something like this.

07-18-2013 , 07:30 AM

#41

MissileDog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jjshabado

This seems more reasonable and I'm not at all surprised if the MSM ****ed up something like this.

Yes, it's true a railway air break will apply all the cars brakes if the air-line suddenly loses air pressure, in particular if the train breaks up. However, it needs a pressurized air-line to keep each car's brake cylinder charged. Turn the engine off, and the air-line would not be able to keep the cars brake cylinders charged, and later the cars brakes would begin to release as the cylinders slowly lost pressure.

Someone needed to set the mechanical hand brakes of enough of those cars to hold that train on that grade by themselves.

07-18-2013 , 07:46 AM

#42

jjshabado

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Yeah, I read more about the brakes and realized that the media was actually pretty accurate (they just skipped the part where the cars have a reserve of air so that when then engine is turned off the brakes don't go off right away).

07-18-2013 , 11:39 AM

#43

andyhop

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MissileDog

Unless their wagons were completely useless the air shouldn't bleed out of the brake cylinders in the time the train was sitting there, wagons can normally sit for days before enough air leaks off to release the brakes.

Last edited by andyhop; 07-18-2013 at 12:03 PM.

07-18-2013 , 01:55 PM

#44

jjshabado

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Andyhop - do you have a link for that?

One thing I read (don't remember where) said that the air could bleed off pretty quickly - sometimes in as little as 10 minutes.

07-18-2013 , 08:43 PM

#45

andyhop

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jjshabado

Andyhop - do you have a link for that?

One thing I read (don't remember where) said that the air could bleed off pretty quickly - sometimes in as little as 10 minutes.

No link just my experience.

I drive trains we stow trains and strings of wagons all the time, and whilst you apply the mechanical handbrakes to ensure they don't move, the brakes on the wagons that don't have the handbrakes applied on them will still be on days later.

Something I didn't think of yesterday because I was thinking of the effects on the wagons is that when you apply the brakes on a train you cut off the connection between the main reservoir and the brake pipe so whether the train is running or not no air is getting into the braking system.

07-19-2013 , 07:36 AM

#46

jjshabado

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I'm confused then about why they leave one engine running? Seems like a pretty big inefficiency in a company that was clearly all about cutting costs wherever it could.

Edit: I don't mean to come off like I'm doubting you. I'll take real experience over the media any time - I'm just curious to figure out how it actually works.

07-19-2013 , 11:35 AM

#47

MissileDog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jjshabado

I'm confused then about why they leave one engine running? Seems like a pretty big inefficiency in a company that was clearly all about cutting costs wherever it could...

In North America, the kinda diesel engines used are a PITA to start, and they run without anti-freeze. For these reasons, they are designed to, and SOP calls for them, to be kept running 24/7. Also, a time consuming safety test is required on start-up, which takes twice as long with the one man crew.

07-19-2013 , 11:56 AM

#48

jjshabado

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Except the report is that 4 engines were turned off and only 1 was kept on. If its more efficient to keep them running I'd assume they would all be left on.

07-19-2013 , 12:27 PM

#49

MissileDog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jjshabado

Except the report is that 4 engines were turned off and only 1 was kept on. If its more efficient to keep them running I'd assume they would all be left on.

I didn't see that, TYVM! Newer engines are indeed designed to be turned off. If only one was left running it would have been left running primarily to keep the brake air-pressure line charged.

07-19-2013 , 12:59 PM

#50

jjshabado

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MD - Ok? I'm not sure what your point was then.

Edit: MD - I read your post as "I didn't say that" and not "I didn't see that". So I think I'm on the same page as you now.

Anyway - I found the following image that explains the brake situation pretty well to me (and it seems like the media reports are probably correct).

Last edited by jjshabado; 07-19-2013 at 01:04 PM.

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