The TPP, a bad deal for the working class? - Politics version 7.0 -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

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The TPP, a bad deal for the working class?

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10-22-2015 , 11:47 AM

spaceman Bryce

anything you guys want

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20,646

The tpp is short for the Trans-Pacific Partnership. It is a giant international trade agreement and undoubtedly the most important piece of legislation being discussed in washington. This washington post article does a pretty good job of explaining the basics of what it is:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/w...c-partnership/

Many people around the world are very concerned about its implications.

Some criticism from wikipedia:

Quote:

In 2013, Senator Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass) and Rep. Alan Grayson (D-Fla.) were among a group of individuals[14] who criticized the Obama administration's secrecy policies on the Trans-Pacific Pact.[14][140][141]

A 2015 round of negotiations was scheduled for Vancouver, Canada, but two weeks before the commencement date, Ottawa, was selected as the new meeting venue and inquiries from public interest groups about attending this round were ignored.[90]

In December 2014 Senator (I-VT) Bernie Sanders denounced the TPP,:

Let’s be clear: the TPP is much more than a “free trade” agreement. It is part of a global race to the bottom to boost the profits of large corporations and Wall Street by outsourcing jobs; undercutting worker rights; dismantling labor, environmental, health, food safety and financial laws; and allowing corporations to challenge our laws in international tribunals rather than our own court system. If TPP was such a good deal for America, the administration should have the courage to show the American people exactly what is in this deal, instead of keeping the content of the TPP a secret.[142]

Michael R. Wessel, former commissioner on the U.S. Trade Deficit Review Commission said in May 2015 that “cleared advisors” like himself were "prohibited from sharing publicly the criticisms we’ve lodged about specific proposals and approaches". He said that only portions of the text had been provided, "to be read under the watchful eye of a USTR official", that access on secure government-run website did not contain the most-up-to-date information, and that for cleared advisors to get that information, he had "to travel to certain government facilities and sign in to read the materials" and "even then, the administration determines what we can and cannot review and, often, they provide carefully edited summaries rather than the actual underlying text, which is critical to really understanding the consequences of the agreement."[143]

In June 2015, Senator (R-KY) Rand Paul opposed fast-tracking the TPP bill on the basis of secrecy. Paul explained that fast-tracking the secret trade partnership would "give the permission to do something you haven’t seen", which he likened to "[putting] the cart before the horse.

also from wikipedia:

Quote:

In 2013, Nobel Memorial prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz warned that based on leaked drafts of the TPP, it presented "grave risks" and "serves the interests of the wealthiest."[14][158] Organised labour in the U.S. argued that the trade deal would largely benefit corporations at the expense of workers in the manufacturing and service industries.[159] The Economic Policy Institute and the Center for Economic and Policy Research argued that the TPP could result in further job losses and declining wages.[160][161]

In 2014, Noam Chomsky warned that the TPP is "designed to carry forward the neoliberal project to maximise profit and domination, and to set the working people in the world in competition with one another so as to lower wages to increase insecurity."[162] Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT), who opposes fast track, stated that trade agreements like the TPP "have ended up devastating working families and enriching large corporations."[163] Another Nobel Memorial Prize-winning economist, Paul Krugman reported, "... I'll be undismayed and even a bit relieved if the T.P.P. just fades away", and said that "... there isn't a compelling case for this deal, from either a global or a national point of view." Krugman also noted the absence of "anything like a political consensus in favor, abroad or at home."[164] Economist Robert Reich contends that the TPP is a "Trojan horse in a global race to the bottom, giving big corporations and Wall Street banks a way to eliminate any and all laws and regulations that get in the way of their profits."[165][166]

a youtube video made by anti tpp activists

the seriousness of this deal can not be overstated. When a guy like Joseph Stiglitz says it poses grave risks he means grave risks. We should all be aware of what is in the tpp and how it will affect all of us, and discuss what we can do.

10-22-2015 , 03:03 PM

FoldnDark

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,930

Tl/dr, mods please delete.

10-22-2015 , 03:05 PM

FoldnDark

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,930

Anyone know why the terms in the TPP are kept secret?

10-23-2015 , 11:01 AM

qwertz1

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,243

Because its bad for the majority of people.

10-23-2015 , 02:00 PM

FoldnDark

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,930

I'm guessing that's not the official line...anyone know why those in favor of the TPP believe it's necessary to keep the terms secret?

10-23-2015 , 02:12 PM

LetsGambool

banned

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 26,568

TPP has to be public for x number of days before it is voted on in Congress. Its not going to be secret.

10-23-2015 , 02:20 PM

TheDuker

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,388

The crux of the rationale seems to be this:

Quote:

Administration aides say they can’t make the details public because the negotiations are still going on with multiple countries at once; if for example, Vietnam knew what the American bottom line was with Japan, that might drive them to change their own terms. Trade might not seem like a national security issue, they say, but it is (and foreign governments regularly try to hack their way in to American trade deliberations).

This is from a few months ago; I'm not sure what the current status is.

10-23-2015 , 05:35 PM

steelhouse

banned

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,109

We should just cut our minimum wage and allow free trade. If they want to impose import taxes, it only hurts their people.

Thus here is how the entire text of the TPP should be.

1. The U.S. will provide no import taxes to any country.

It is easy to come to that conclusion if you read "Protection or Free Trade."

Now within the country to make the poor the richest. Australians and the Swiss make less on a purchasing power basis than people living in Wyoming. The federal government should write a law.

2. Implementing a minimum wage is a felony.

Free trade consists simply in letting people buy and sell as they want to buy and sell. It is protection that requires force, for it consists in preventing people from doing what they want to do. Protective tariffs are as much applications of force as are blockading squadrons, and their object is the same—to prevent trade. The difference between the two is that blockading squadrons are a means whereby nations seek to prevent their enemies from trading; protective tariffs are a means whereby nations attempt to prevent their own people from trading. What protection teaches us, is to do to ourselves in time of peace what enemies seek to do to us in time of war. - George.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ns-a-wage-hike

U.S. minimum wage, making it relatively expensive to can tuna in his state. “That’s an unfair competitive disadvantage for Georgia companies and other fish companies around the country,” Isakson says. “I was trying to get everybody who was affected by it to agree to something that everybody could agree to, and they agreed to 40¢.”

It was Georgia, that wanted the minimum wage in Samoa to rise so they could compete. Maybe Tucker is right, minimum wage is just a eugenics program.

10-23-2015 , 08:38 PM

qwertz1

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,243

Wait you are just saying what other saying about ttp, or is that ur oppinion? Cause it's very neoliberal stuff.

Most people should like the minmum wage. Obv corporations don't, but in time of more and more workless people, we need that to not allow corporations to get cheaper and cheaper work. The more people are desperate for a job, the worse you can make working conditions and laws need to prevent that.

The Free Trade Agreement is btw much more then just letting buy and sell easy. There is also that investor protection and much more things in there. And that only the things we know so far, who knows what else...

You can also look how much Mexico and Canada like that Free Trade Agreement with the US.
Or how we **** up africa through forced Free Trade Agreements.

Oh btw, you say canning Tuna or whatever is to expensive in the US because of the minmum wage. Do you realize how you can prevent the problems this causes? Right, import taxes, so that the imported tuna gets more expensive again and both have fair chances.
Import taxes are usually a good thing, don't get fooled.
It protects your own economy from low wage producers elsewhere. I think China for example has a law, that no imported product can be cheaper then the cheapest chinese made product.

Last edited by qwertz1; 10-23-2015 at 08:54 PM.

10-24-2015 , 11:45 AM

#10

Yakmelk

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoldnDark

I'm guessing that's not the official line...anyone know why those in favor of the TPP believe it's necessary to keep the terms secret?

I've spoken about it with a few pro EU people and the main thing according to them was something like:
Its a trade treaty, publishing the text is bad when were still in negotiations because it could be beneficial to the party were negotiating with.

Last edited by Yakmelk; 10-24-2015 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Slow ponied, I see theduker said something similar

10-24-2015 , 12:26 PM

#11

FoldnDark

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,930

Spaceman, what do you say? Isn't the conspiracy theory talk a bit premature here?

10-26-2015 , 08:41 AM

#12

Mr.mmmKay

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Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 20,179

Easier trading with USA#1 would be great, it brings us one step closes to the unites states of the world#1

10-27-2015 , 01:57 AM

#13

spaceman Bryce

anything you guys want

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20,646

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoldnDark

Spaceman, what do you say? Isn't the conspiracy theory talk a bit premature here?

I would argue the conspiracy theory isn't too premature; that it is exactly the right time to discuss the ramifactions of our actions. The best book you can read which was reccomended to me by a very smart person about current affairs when i was like "but..wtf" is Zbinew Brezinski's The Grand Chessboard. I didn't expect to actually read it but as I read it it was shocking enough(in my ignorance) for me to continue. very eye opening.

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