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Old 05-15-2017, 09:31 AM   #176
Black Peter
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Nice try, but Hong Kong was largely independent and unregulated before being handed over to the Chinese.
And it has always been regulated by either the British formerly, or the Chinese currently. Or are you saying that the Brits have a completely unregulated form of capitalism?

I'm glad that you're a fan of universal health care and low-rent housing for the poor. Something that HK has had for a long time.
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Old 05-15-2017, 09:38 AM   #177
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Lol, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, for example, was due to the gov't, and populists like Todd and Frank who floated the idea of home ownership being a right. Not to mention low interest rates from the FED. Black Peter's heavily regulated welfare capitalism hard at work.
First, i said that i'm a fan of regulated capitalism. You're adding the "heavily" and "welfare" as a strawman, because you have no other way of winning this argument without making up stupid things.

There were major ****ups all around leading up to the 2008 meltdown. One of them was lack of oversight of the banking industry.

Are you seriously saying that you want a form of capitalism that has NO regulation? You do realize that it would quickly result in a handful of people owning everything and workers getting almost nothing. This never ends well for the ruling elites.
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Old 05-15-2017, 10:21 AM   #178
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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First, i said that i'm a fan of regulated capitalism. You're adding the "heavily" and "welfare" as a strawman, because you have no other way of winning this argument without making up stupid things.
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Hong Kong is not a country.

Like Singapore, it employs a system of heavily regulated capitalism with extensive social programs and welfare. I'm glad to see that you're a fan of social programs and welfare.
First, clearly you are getting emotional about your utopia, because you can't even remember what you wrote. Second, economists regarded HK before being transferred over back to the Chinese to be an experiment in laissez-faire capitalism. You'll have to give a citation to convince me that it was governed at all like the UK, or that Hong Kong is Singapore, etc.

http://www.hoover.org/research/hong-kong-experiment

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HONG KONG AND BRITAIN
The difference in the economic policies followed by Hong Kong and Britain was a pure accident. The colonial office in Britain happened to send John Cowper-thwaite to Hong Kong to serve as its financial secretary. Cowperthwaite was a Scotsman and very much a disciple of Adam Smith. At the time, while Britain was moving to a socialist and welfare state, Cowperthwaite insisted that Hong Kong practice laissez-faire. He refused to impose any tariffs. He insisted on keeping taxes down.
The point is that "heavily regulated capitalism" with "welfare" and "social programs" is EXACTLY the mentality that led to Democrats like Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, etc. and Republicans to get on board with a home for everyone, which is how the bubble caused by low interest rates from the Federal Reserve manifested itself. Now, you may not like that example, and would rather paint a different picture by claiming Hong Kong is "heavily regulated capitalism", but you know, whatever. You're dream world is a real-life nightmare.

Lol, strawman, whaaaatever.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:22 AM   #179
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Re: socialism has never worked?

We both know that the 2008 meltdown was just as much due to deregulation and greed as it was due to idiots like Frank.

You're the one who brought up HK. I brought up Singapore as an example of places without natural resources that have been successful (relatively speaking). That was actually meant to help you, since you appear to desperately need help with your argument. Bali is probably a better example for your case. Another province that is almost entirely left alone by the ruling country.

Neither HK or Singapore are pure capitalism. Both have extensive social welfare programs paid for by *gasp* taxpayers! LMAO

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Hong Kong has a system of government-operated hospitals, which constitutes the majority of the health care system. People also have the option of a private hospital if they wish. There are more than fifty public hospitals, and twelve private ones.

Hong Kong’s 6 million people are one of the healthiest populations in the world. The life expectancy is 84 for women and 78 for men, the second-highest worldwide.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan..._b_299907.html
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You'll have to give a citation to convince me that it was governed at all like the UK, or that Hong Kong is Singapore, etc.
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Public housing in Hong Kong is a set of mass housing programmes through which the Government of Hong Kong provides affordable housing for lower-income residents. It is a major component of housing in Hong Kong, with nearly half of the population now residing in some form of public housing.[1] The public housing policy dates to 1954, after a fire in Shek Kip Mei destroyed thousands of shanty homes end of 1953 and prompted the government to begin constructing homes for the poor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public...g_in_Hong_Kong
Oh no! I bet you hate HK now. lol



But fine, i'm ok with you saying that i support heavily regulated capitalism. It's just an adjective. I like the American system, but would like to see more regulation wrt consumer protections and more severe criminal convictions of white collar crimes. I would also like universal health care for the poor with private options for those with money.

You never answered my question about pure capitalism. Are you a fan of no regulation at all?
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:24 AM   #180
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Because capitalism doesn't have the PR team that the federal government has your opinion is very popular. However, the majority of blame should lie on government.
thats right, im blaming the government that it didnt kill the wall street gangsters with drones like terrorists deserve it.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:31 AM   #181
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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thats right, im blaming the government that it didnt kill the wall street gangsters with drones like terrorists deserve it.
The right-wingers ITT think those guys are heroes. Anyone who can figure out a way to rip off suckers and get rich doing so are the Messiah to these clowns who want pure capitalism with no govt intrusion. What they don't realize is that they ONLY reason they're not working in a sweatshop with their 6-year old kids is bc the govt protects them.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:55 AM   #182
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Re: socialism has never worked?

peter, who ITT have said they want zero intrusion?
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:55 AM   #183
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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thats right, im blaming the government that it didnt kill the wall street gangsters with drones like terrorists deserve it.
It is very sad that your brain thinks this way.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:01 PM   #184
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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The right-wingers ITT think those guys are heroes. Anyone who can figure out a way to rip off suckers and get rich doing so are the Messiah to these clowns who want pure capitalism with no govt intrusion. What they don't realize is that they ONLY reason they're not working in a sweatshop with their 6-year old kids is bc the govt protects them.
another counterargument against so called free trade:
free trade is a form of regulation as well, but not a direct one. instead, whichever country is in the position to define the rules of the so called "free trade", will win in the end. At least the finance elite of that country.

The reason TTIP wasnt succesfull is because the EU and the US couldnt find a definition of free trade they would both stick to, as they deeply mistrust each other.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:14 PM   #185
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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peter, who ITT have said they want zero intrusion?
What specific intrusions are you in favor of? Leaves appears to be a huge fan of universal health care and public housing. Are you as well?

Last edited by Black Peter; 05-15-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:28 PM   #186
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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What specific intrusions are you in favor of? Leaves appears to be a huge fan of universal health care and public housing. Are you as well?
I am in favor of all types of intrusions. I like the idea of public transportation, law enforcement, and even unemployment benefits.

Edit to address you edit: I am a fan of public housing (at least to an extent), but I'm not a big fan of universal health care.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:31 PM   #187
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Your entire argument is fallacious. You're using countries that are not socialist as an "example" of how great socialism is.
Nah, you're just defining it how you want it. If you don't want to call the Nordic countries socialist that's fine. I would say the Nordic countries are much more anti capitalist in the sense that they never subscribed to laisse faire capitalism as primal and have many policies to mitigate what many would consider the good points of American style laisse faire capitalism. Many people would call people who advocate for more Nordic like policies socialist but if you don't then I don't have any truck. I'm sure whatever your definition of socialism whenever it gets described probably never worked.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:37 PM   #188
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
I am in favor of all types of intrusions. I like the idea of public transportation, law enforcement, and even unemployment benefits.

Edit to address you edit: I am a fan of public housing (at least to an extent), but I'm not a big fan of universal health care.
Ok, fair enough. You and I are not too far apart.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:50 PM   #189
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Nah, you're just defining it how you want it. If you don't want to call the Nordic countries socialist that's fine. I would say the Nordic countries are much more anti capitalist in the sense that they never subscribed to laisse faire capitalism as primal and have many policies to mitigate what many would consider the good points of American style laisse faire capitalism. Many people would call people who advocate for more Nordic like policies socialist but if you don't then I don't have any truck. I'm sure whatever your definition of socialism whenever it gets described probably never worked.
The US isn't laissez faire capitalism at all. The markets are regulated too much to call it anything remotely close to that. The Scandinavia countries aren't anti-capitalist. I don't know where you got this idea from. Norway and Sweden have too big of a private sector to call them anything but capitalist countries.
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Old 05-15-2017, 03:28 PM   #190
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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The US isn't laissez faire capitalism at all. The markets are regulated too much to call it anything remotely close to that. The Scandinavia countries aren't anti-capitalist. I don't know where you got this idea from. Norway and Sweden have too big of a private sector to call them anything but capitalist countries.
Exactly. These socialists don't even understand the basics of socialism and point to heavily regulated capitalism as an example of it. lol
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:26 PM   #191
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Re: socialism has never worked?

bwahahah Ol' Zwarte Piet in rare form

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I do think it's a strawman with regards to Obama. I think what he meant was that people don't build things by themselves. They have help. There are often govt loans, etc. There is govt aid in other ways. Roads, police, military, fire stations, USPS, etc. all contribute to helping businesses. These are all provided by the govt.

But i could be wrong about Obama's intentions. It's often hard to tell what he really means.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:28 PM   #192
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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'The Spanish war and other events in 1936-7 turned the scale and thereafter I knew where I stood. Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, *against* totalitarianism and *for* democratic socialism, as I understand it.'
-Orwell, 'Why I Write', 1947

Perhaps because of CIA-sponsored promotion of Nineteen-Eighty-Four and Animal Farm in the 1950s (for the CIA's own obvious reasons), Americans tend to imagine that Orwell was a conservative. And they can't conceive that a socialist, which Orwell certainly was, could be opposed to Stalinism. They haven't read Homage to Catalonia (because the CIA didn't puff that one), so they don't know that Orwell served with the socialist POUM militia in the Spanish Civil War against Franco's fascists, or that he was wounded in action, or that he narrowly escaped execution when the Moscow-line Stalinists shut down the independent socialist militias.

Srs question:

When you typed this out what chances did you give one of the trumpers responding with something like, 'oh, wow, thanks, I didn't know that'?

Plz give your answer in the form of snowballs in hell.
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:25 PM   #193
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Srs question:

When you typed this out what chances did you give one of the trumpers responding with something like, 'oh, wow, thanks, I didn't know that'?

Plz give your answer in the form of snowballs in hell.
Unlikely. But change is often incremental.
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:27 PM   #194
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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We both know that the 2008 meltdown was just as much due to deregulation and greed as it was due to idiots like Frank.
Greed is a total cop-out. People merely act based on self-interest. There is no such thing as greed. And, I can't imagine what deregulation you are talking about as housing has been heavily regulated for a long time.

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You never answered my question about pure capitalism. Are you a fan of no regulation at all?
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What specific intrusions are you in favor of? Leaves appears to be a huge fan of universal health care and public housing. Are you as well?
I didn't realize you asked a question about pure capitalism. I am sure by some convoluted reasoning you came to conclusions about what I think. Right now I am saying that Hong Kong is not an example of pure capitalism, but to portray it as an example of heavily regulated capitalism is a mischaracterization, and misinterpretation of history. And, also I can mention Hong Kong as an example without it being an example of pure capitalism. I don't see any contradiction in doing that.

Also, I cannot find a link to what Hong Kong's health care system looked like historically, but I am not willing to adopt your rose-colored version without evidence.

The laissez-faire solution to fires is to allow private fire companies and fire insurance, btw. So I would look at if that section of the market was private or not.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 05-15-2017 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 05-15-2017, 08:48 PM   #195
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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The US isn't laissez faire capitalism at all. The markets are regulated too much to call it anything remotely close to that. The Scandinavia countries aren't anti-capitalist. I don't know where you got this idea from. Norway and Sweden have too big of a private sector to call them anything but capitalist countries.
Not in practice but in ideology. Freedom of contract, process justification for riches, the primacy of property rights etc are highly prized in the US ideologically while Europe was more wary of capitalism's excesses and have more curbs via the welfare state and transfers, stipulations on labor contracts, etc.

Right wing libertarianism and its accompanying veneration of markets and "freedom" is almost a uniquely American phenomenon.

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 05-15-2017 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 05-15-2017, 10:37 PM   #196
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Re: socialism has never worked?

I'd feel more comfortable with left wing egalitarianism if it actually produced anything of value. Take for example an air conditioner. Why couldn't some left wing egalitarians get together and say, "You know what? The world needs an air conditioner, because then we'd all be more comfortable." But no, they can't make any great contribution like that, except maybe Linux, which you know, publicly traded.

I mean, I don't think it's too much to ask. If egalitarianism is so damn good, then why has it not contributed more to the advancement of civilization?

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 05-15-2017 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:52 AM   #197
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Re: socialism has never worked?

well that's a Not Sure If Srs if I've ever seen one
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Old 05-16-2017, 10:55 PM   #198
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Re: socialism has never worked?

Pretty sure Nordic sauna technology > Nordic AC technology. Nordic AC technology is "open a window"
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:01 AM   #199
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
I'd feel more comfortable with left wing egalitarianism if it actually produced anything of value. Take for example an air conditioner. Why couldn't some left wing egalitarians get together and say, "You know what? The world needs an air conditioner, because then we'd all be more comfortable." But no, they can't make any great contribution like that, except maybe Linux, which you know, publicly traded.

I mean, I don't think it's too much to ask. If egalitarianism is so damn good, then why has it not contributed more to the advancement of civilization?
ever heard of the connection of the hippies and the early hacker-scene? alot of early IT-inventions were made by hippies that there just tech-nerds and playing around.

The problem with inventions by capitalists are, that capitalism wants immidiate profit and doesnt like to experiment in the dark. Therfor capitalists are bad at basic research and dont like trying out fancy things that seem to be too crazy to turn into profit.
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:25 AM   #200
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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ever heard of the connection of the hippies and the early hacker-scene? alot of early IT-inventions were made by hippies that there just tech-nerds and playing around.

The problem with inventions by capitalists are, that capitalism wants immidiate profit and doesnt like to experiment in the dark. Therfor capitalists are bad at basic research and dont like trying out fancy things that seem to be too crazy to turn into profit.
Hahahahahaha!

Musk, Jobs, Gates, etc must all hate capitalism. Lol

God, you're dumb.
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