Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics version 7.0 more politics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-11-2017, 12:32 PM   #126
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,578
Re: socialism has never worked?

LOL... someone read a couple of books and thinks he "gets it"....
Black Peter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 02:20 PM   #127
bahbahmickey
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: UTG-3
Posts: 8,530
Re: socialism has never worked?

tomj,

I believe everything bad you mention in your last post happens more frequent in a socialist country than a capitalistic one.

Your argument that you are better off in the middle ages than a homeless man today is silly. If you could choose to be middle class today in the US or middle class in the middle ages what do you choose? Would you rather be born to a random set of parents today in the US or in the middle ages? These are such stupid questions I hesitate even asking them, but I honestly don't know what you are going to answer.

If socialism is so great why don't we see more socialist countries today? Of the socialist countries today which ones would you say you'd rather be randomly born into than the avg. capitalistic country?
bahbahmickey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 02:59 PM   #128
tomj
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,931
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
LOL... someone read a couple of books and thinks he "gets it"....
More than a couple. But in fact it is only necessary to read one to "get it", and that is 1984 by Orwell. And what books have influenced you?
tomj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 03:19 PM   #129
tomj
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,931
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
tomj,

I believe everything bad you mention in your last post happens more frequent in a socialist country than a capitalistic one.

Your argument that you are better off in the middle ages than a homeless man today is silly. If you could choose to be middle class today in the US or middle class in the middle ages what do you choose? Would you rather be born to a random set of parents today in the US or in the middle ages? These are such stupid questions I hesitate even asking them, but I honestly don't know what you are going to answer.

If socialism is so great why don't we see more socialist countries today? Of the socialist countries today which ones would you say you'd rather be randomly born into than the avg. capitalistic country?
I thought you would say that which is why I tried to pre-empt it and mention that I don't believe that so-called socialist states were/are socialist at all. Let's take Cuba for example. Cuba has outstanding (relative to its economy) health care. US citizens, in the world's richest economy, stare in envy at the Cuban's progressive health care system. The US exports bombs. Cuba exports doctors. This leads some to assume that Cuba is a socialist state. But Cuba is not democratic; women are not equal citizens in Cuba; there is inequality; there is exploitation. So to me this isn't socialist, no more socialist than the UK between 1951 and 1979 when most people had jobs, their own stable home, decent health care. The Cuban revolution got rid of the dictator, US puppet Batista, but it didn't get rid of capitalism. I'd rather live in the west in somewhere like Finland where education is good, taxes are high and people seem to want to contribute to society. I was born in 1983 in the UK, I would rather this than the "soviet union" (speech marks because it's a misnomer). Would I rather live in the US or soviet union in the 80s? Tough one. Depends what kind of life I'd have. Job security, housing and social security are more important to me than freedom to make money. If I was a black man, again it's a tough one, black men are treated appallingly in the US - another good book has just sprung to mind, the N***** Factory by the musician Gil Scott Heron about life on student campuses in the 1960s - when state police shot protesters dead for demonstrating about treatment and conditions of black students, and segregation of colleges. So yeah, not sure.

I'd rather be born today than 700 years ago and I'd rather be middle class, but the vast majority of people aren't middle class. My point is that what life does a homeless person have that is any better than the life of someone in the middle ages - at least they would have had a purpose in life, farming or something.
tomj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 07:03 AM   #130
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,578
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomj View Post
More than a couple. But in fact it is only necessary to read one to "get it", and that is 1984 by Orwell. And what books have influenced you?
The cat in the hat.
Black Peter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 07:51 AM   #131
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Station keeping
Posts: 9,453
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomj View Post
More than a couple. But in fact it is only necessary to read one to "get it", and that is 1984 by Orwell. And what books have influenced you?
Heh.... You might try another of Orwell's.

Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 09:00 AM   #132
dereds
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Meath
Posts: 16,282
Re: socialism has never worked?

Well the author continued to consider himself a socialist despite his critique of Stalinism so I don't know what work you think that is doing Lapidator.
dereds is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 09:35 AM   #133
bahbahmickey
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: UTG-3
Posts: 8,530
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomj View Post
I thought you would say that which is why I tried to pre-empt it and mention that I don't believe that so-called socialist states were/are socialist at all.
Why do you believe there are no truly socialist states? The get knee deep in socialism and realize how stupid it is and try to un-socialize or is it that they are still on their way paradize/ true socialism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomj View Post
Let's take Cuba for example. Cuba has outstanding (relative to its economy) health care. US citizens, in the world's richest economy, stare in envy at the Cuban's progressive health care system. The US exports bombs. Cuba exports doctors.
Why do you think it is that Cuban doctors have been trying to leave the country for so long?

Very few people from the US envy Cuba. Some may think they have a great healthcare system (rightly or wrongly), but almost none of them would trade places with a Cuban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomj View Post
If I was a black man, again it's a tough one, black men are treated appallingly in the US - another good book has just sprung to mind, the N***** Factory by the musician Gil Scott Heron about life on student campuses in the 1960s - when state police shot protesters dead for demonstrating about treatment and conditions of black students, and segregation of colleges. So yeah, not sure.
Hold on. You think black people are treated worse in the US than in Russia today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomj View Post
I'd rather be born today than 700 years ago and I'd rather be middle class, but the vast majority of people aren't middle class.
The vast majority of people in the US are middle class. The middle class is shrinking, but the majority of people are still in the middle class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomj View Post
My point is that what life does a homeless person have that is any better than the life of someone in the middle ages - at least they would have had a purpose in life, farming or something.
How is a homeless person today better off than a homeless person in the middle ages? Or are you wanting to compare apples and oranges and compare a homeless person today and middle class person in the middle ages?

If it is the later then I would say the opportunities available to the homeless today trump the advantages you would have as a middle class middle ages person. There are ways to get free housing and food today. There are ways to find a job and buy things that weren't available in the middle ages. Diseases that were a death sentence in the middle ages are curable.
bahbahmickey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 09:38 AM   #134
bahbahmickey
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: UTG-3
Posts: 8,530
Re: socialism has never worked?

Tomj, I'd like to hear your response to my last post, but I am also interested in your backround and how you came to be pro-socialism. Nothing too personal, but stuff like where you were born, where else have you lived, your education, any big events in your life that may have effected your decision to be pro-socialism (father lost his job and you were homeless for a while, your grandpa took you to a socialist speaker when you were young, you went to a OWS protest and that convinced you how evil rich people are), etc.
bahbahmickey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 10:32 AM   #135
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Station keeping
Posts: 9,453
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds View Post
Well the author continued to consider himself a socialist despite his critique of Stalinism so I don't know what work you think that is doing Lapidator.
Yes, because socialists never admit that failure is systematic.

Stalin screwed up, not "the workers", they say.

It's the perpetual refrain. We just need to try harder in the next iteration. Just ask Boxer.

Nevertheless, AF nicely describes socialism and it logical extension, communism.
Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 11:16 AM   #136
dereds
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Meath
Posts: 16,282
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
Yes, because socialists never admit that failure is systematic.

Stalin screwed up, not "the workers", they say.

It's the perpetual refrain. We just need to try harder in the next iteration. Just ask Boxer.

Nevertheless, AF nicely describes socialism and it logical extension, communism.
erm no communism is not a logical extension of socialism, there isn't anything logically entailing the shift from socialism to communism.

AF was written by a socialist whose rejection of Stalinism was in part motivated by the Stalinist betrayal of the red brigades in Spain.
dereds is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 11:41 AM   #137
tomj
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,931
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
Yes, because socialists never admit that failure is systematic.

Stalin screwed up, not "the workers", they say.

It's the perpetual refrain. We just need to try harder in the next iteration. Just ask Boxer.

Nevertheless, AF nicely describes socialism and it logical extension, communism.
Dereds is right of course.
If you actually read what Orwell said, he was against totalitarianism in all its forms. The right try have always tried to claim Orwell for their own, in fact Orwell is a traitor to his 'lower upper middle' class upbringing, being an imperial guard in Burma and growing to despise the empire because of the way the people were treated there.
tomj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 12:26 PM   #138
tomj
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,931
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
Tomj, I'd like to hear your response to my last post, but I am also interested in your backround and how you came to be pro-socialism. Nothing too personal, but stuff like where you were born, where else have you lived, your education, any big events in your life that may have effected your decision to be pro-socialism (father lost his job and you were homeless for a while, your grandpa took you to a socialist speaker when you were young, you went to a OWS protest and that convinced you how evil rich people are), etc.
Born in Birkenhead which is near Liverpool and grew up during the Thatcher years which is my earliest political memory, the utter hatred toward this woman for what she did to the miners, steelworkers and so on. Father was quite a bitter man, socialist in many ways but also a bit racist, fond of the Soviet union and devastated when the Berlin Wall came down. Bit of a hippy, mother was as well but she wasn't political. Neither of them worked until I was about 8 or 9. They were educated though - always books in the house, which was a rare sight on our estate, people used to come in and think they were like Professors or something. Nope, just on the dole lol. All kinds of books though, that's where I picked up 1984, I must have looked at the spine since I was 3 and one day picked it up and decided to read it.
Wirral council kept it's grammar schools, offered 11+ which I passed and went to a school which was packed full of middle class kids - what I would say were genuine middle class, posh cars, managers, solicitors. I was the only one from my school on the estate, so I guess I had a unique insight being from a poor are but mixing with posh types and seeing how they lived. Ironically I had a worse standard of living than most of my former mates who went to the comprehensive.
Anyway, all that I guess, coupled with some lefty ideas inherited from my father. It took reading as I said Orwell, and the communist manifesto and other Marxist stuff to decide what I thought was wrong with the world and as Lenin asked, what is to be done. Learned a lot from discussions and activities with other socialists as well as I got older like 20+. Always open to new ideas but fundamentally I am an irreconcilable socialist.
tomj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 12:44 PM   #139
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,578
Re: socialism has never worked?

I wonder how these capitalism-haters get their message across without using the benefits of capitalism (computers, internet, etc.)? And don't give me this **** about who invented these things... the products that you're using right now are there because some company decided it was profitable to provide them. And you paid for it. Or more likely, your govt paid for it, along with all the other things you mooch.

lolz
Black Peter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 01:50 PM   #140
dereds
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Meath
Posts: 16,282
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
I wonder how these capitalism-haters get their message across without using the benefits of capitalism (computers, internet, etc.)? And don't give me this **** about who invented these things... the products that you're using right now are there because some company decided it was profitable to provide them. And you paid for it. Or more likely, your govt paid for it, along with all the other things you mooch.

lolz
lol
dereds is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 02:07 PM   #141
57 On Red
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,733
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomj View Post
Dereds is right of course.
If you actually read what Orwell said, he was against totalitarianism in all its forms. The right try have always tried to claim Orwell for their own, in fact Orwell is a traitor to his 'lower upper middle' class upbringing, being an imperial guard in Burma and growing to despise the empire because of the way the people were treated there.
'The Spanish war and other events in 1936-7 turned the scale and thereafter I knew where I stood. Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, *against* totalitarianism and *for* democratic socialism, as I understand it.'
-Orwell, 'Why I Write', 1947

Perhaps because of CIA-sponsored promotion of Nineteen-Eighty-Four and Animal Farm in the 1950s (for the CIA's own obvious reasons), Americans tend to imagine that Orwell was a conservative. And they can't conceive that a socialist, which Orwell certainly was, could be opposed to Stalinism. They haven't read Homage to Catalonia (because the CIA didn't puff that one), so they don't know that Orwell served with the socialist POUM militia in the Spanish Civil War against Franco's fascists, or that he was wounded in action, or that he narrowly escaped execution when the Moscow-line Stalinists shut down the independent socialist militias.
57 On Red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 02:28 PM   #142
tomj
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,931
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 57 On Red View Post
'The Spanish war and other events in 1936-7 turned the scale and thereafter I knew where I stood. Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, *against* totalitarianism and *for* democratic socialism, as I understand it.'
-Orwell, 'Why I Write', 1947

Perhaps because of CIA-sponsored promotion of Nineteen-Eighty-Four and Animal Farm in the 1950s (for the CIA's own obvious reasons), Americans tend to imagine that Orwell was a conservative. And they can't conceive that a socialist, which Orwell certainly was, could be opposed to Stalinism. They haven't read Homage to Catalonia (because the CIA didn't puff that one), so they don't know that Orwell served with the socialist POUM militia in the Spanish Civil War against Franco's fascists, or that he was wounded in action, or that he narrowly escaped execution when the Moscow-line Stalinists shut down the independent socialist militias.
Indeed. The same could be said of schools in the UK, Animal Farm is studied by many, never Burmese Days or Homage to Catalonia - where Orwell talked about the 'workers being in the saddle' in Barcelona pre-Franco.
tomj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 02:29 PM   #143
57 On Red
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,733
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
I wonder how these capitalism-haters get their message across without using the benefits of capitalism (computers, internet, etc.)? And don't give me this **** about who invented these things... the products that you're using right now are there because some company decided it was profitable to provide them. And you paid for it. Or more likely, your govt paid for it, along with all the other things you mooch.

lolz
Oh dear. Someone doesn't like himself very much.
57 On Red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 02:34 PM   #144
57 On Red
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,733
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomj View Post
Indeed. The same could be said of schools in the UK, Animal Farm is studied by many, never Burmese Days or Homage to Catalonia - where Orwell talked about the 'workers being in the saddle' in Barcelona pre-Franco.
Actually, Homage to Catalonia was a set text at my school in the 1970s. That is, it was a set text for the old Oxford & Cambridge exam board recognised by the 'public' schools.
57 On Red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 03:19 PM   #145
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,578
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 57 On Red View Post
Oh dear. Someone doesn't like hypocrites very much.
Correct.
Black Peter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 03:24 PM   #146
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
leavesofliberty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: atlas shreeked
Posts: 4,754
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
I wonder how these capitalism-haters get their message across without using the benefits of capitalism (computers, internet, etc.)? And don't give me this **** about who invented these things... the products that you're using right now are there because some company decided it was profitable to provide them. And you paid for it. Or more likely, your govt paid for it, along with all the other things you mooch.

lolz
Usually they pretend that those things exist because of the government, and the collective in some way, hence Obama, "You didn't build that." You didn't build that. You didn't invent that. You didn't do that. And, yada yada. If it's a strawman I'm making, it's a damn good one. Shoe fits imo.
leavesofliberty is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 03:25 PM   #147
dereds
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Meath
Posts: 16,282
Re: socialism has never worked?

Round here they usually they claim that capitalism exists because of government and lol at ACism.

In any case poster who claims to troll bad takes prob wants to refrain from posting bad takes.
dereds is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 03:55 PM   #148
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,578
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Usually they pretend that those things exist because of the government, and the collective in some way, hence Obama, "You didn't build that." You didn't build that. You didn't invent that. You didn't do that. And, yada yada. If it's a strawman I'm making, it's a damn good one. Shoe fits imo.
I do think it's a strawman with regards to Obama. I think what he meant was that people don't build things by themselves. They have help. There are often govt loans, etc. There is govt aid in other ways. Roads, police, military, fire stations, USPS, etc. all contribute to helping businesses. These are all provided by the govt.

But i could be wrong about Obama's intentions. It's often hard to tell what he really means.
Black Peter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 04:09 PM   #149
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 21,775
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
I do think it's a strawman with regards to Obama. I think what he meant was that people don't build things by themselves. They have help. There are often govt loans, etc. There is govt aid in other ways. Roads, police, military, fire stations, USPS, etc. all contribute to helping businesses. These are all provided by the govt.

But i could be wrong about Obama's intentions. It's often hard to tell what he really means.
Quote:
Obama, July 13: There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me ó because they want to give something back. They know they didnít ó look, if youíve been successful, you didnít get there on your own. You didnít get there on your own. Iím always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something ó there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If youíve got a business ó you didnít build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didnít get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we donít do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. Thatís how we funded the GI Bill. Thatís how we created the middle class. Thatís how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. Thatís how we invented the Internet. Thatís how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and thatís the reason Iím running for President ó because I still believe in that idea. Youíre not on your own, weíre in this together.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_didn%27t_build_that
Huehuecoyotl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 01:57 PM   #150
57 On Red
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,733
Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
Correct.
You're a very sad man.
57 On Red is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online