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Old 05-04-2017, 09:41 PM   #76
Huehuecoyotl
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Re: socialism has never worked?

Grunching : Socialism is good and we need more of it.
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:07 AM   #77
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
Grunching : Socialism is good and we need more of it.
one hope i have is that technology might have such an overwhelming success that capitalism itself will be unprofitable, as you just need the raw materials for a 3D-printer which can design anything.

or the AI will be powerful that the robots make all the work for us.

unfortunatly it seems like that is a) no gurantee that we will all profit from this situation and b) there is no gurantee that the technology will become as powerful as described.

yes, there are studies that forecast 50% of the jobs go to AI in 20 years, but these studies dont need to be true or the rich might decide: "well we need less people, the dispensable can die"

so all in all i dont have a concept of what i can do expcept drinking starbucks coffee
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Old 05-06-2017, 04:33 AM   #78
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Re: socialism has never worked?

Does Socialism allow a barber who has saved up some money, to open a barbershop where he works alongside a few other barbers each of whom gives him 20% of their take?
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Old 05-06-2017, 04:51 AM   #79
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Does Socialism allow a barber who has saved up some money, to open a barbershop where he works alongside a few other barbers each of whom gives him 20% of their take?
there are diffrent theories of socialism, but the basic idea is that the workers will overtake the workingplace and manage it by themselves.

So to answer your question: Socialism is basically designed that the amount of people who will work for you is very limited, so that the profit you are able to make by other peoples labour is very limited as well.

So you might be able to open a barbershop as a chief and get some rent by people which will work there, but you wont be able to open a business chain, since socialism wont respect private property as much as capitalism.

edit: 20% seems alot for socialism. not sure you will get 20% out of each worker, since they always have the option to get rid of you if you are pushing it to hard.

Last edited by spewmachine; 05-06-2017 at 05:21 AM.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:10 AM   #80
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Re: socialism has never worked?

Workers are not smart enough to run things.

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Old 05-07-2017, 08:18 AM   #81
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Interesting post. It may also be that capitalism relied on factors such as advances in communication and technology making possible political systems that previously weren't viable.

The same sort of thing may be true of forms of socialism. Maybe the necessary step to make it viable is technology rendering human labour largely valueless - then it can't be exploited. If that's combined with plenty of wealth creation then it's not hard to imagine that capitalism failing and the options becoming a few very rich lords or some form of socialism.
Socialism does not encourage innovation. This is plain ignorant. When the robots start to "take over" there will be plenty of wealth for welfare for dislocated workers. There is no reason for socialists to worry their pretty heads. They will still be able to focus on punk rock, and wasting time in academia with confirmation biased research.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:20 AM   #82
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Grunching : The division of labor is good and we need more of it.
fyp.
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:07 AM   #83
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Workers are not smart enough to run things.
It is true that many (if not most) workers don't have the aptitude to run a business. If a Subway store let the workers take over, they would run it into the ground within days. Most workers don't want the responsibility of running a business. They want to go home at a certain time each day and not have to think about the job after hours. They also want a steady paycheck and cannot handle the fluctuations of income determined by ownership.

Having said that, there is no reason why owners and stockholders should be allowed to bleed the workers dry. A recent example was when AA gave their pilots and flight attendants a pay increase, and the stockholders screamed bloody murder.

Quote:
“This is frustrating. Labor is being paid first again. Shareholders get leftovers,” Citi analyst Kevin Crissey wrote in a note to clients. Investors showed their displeasure by sending American Airlines Group Inc.’s stock down 5.2% to $43.98 on Thursday.
That's just being stupidly greedy.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...427-story.html
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:15 AM   #84
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Re: socialism has never worked?

There are ignorant, short sighted shareholders too. Doesn't mean the system isn't working.
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Old 05-07-2017, 11:32 AM   #85
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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There are ignorant, short sighted shareholders too. Doesn't mean the system isn't working.
I'm aware that the system is working. I'm a fan of regulated capitalism. But that doesn't mean it's perfect. I'd like to see more consumer protections, more worker protections, etc.
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:43 PM   #86
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Having said that, there is no reason why owners and stockholders should be allowed to bleed the workers dry. A recent example was when AA gave their pilots and flight attendants a pay increase, and the stockholders screamed bloody murder.



That's just being stupidly greedy.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...427-story.html
First off, I don't see being greedy as a bad thing, but calling something stupidly greedy does have a negative connotation.

AA made a decision to pay employees more and some shareholders made a decision to invest their money elsewhere (saying the stock went down x% was due to this one decision is incorrect but we can leave that for another day). Some of these investors saw costs rising and wanted out. If revenues increase, as the article suggests then they could potential get new investors but until then you have to expect a company becoming less profitable is enough to get some investors out.
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:43 PM   #87
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Re: socialism has never worked?

Airlines are a perfect example of bail-out capitalism, which is my major criticism against regulated capitalism.

https://www.propublica.org/special/government-bailouts

All this imagined fear over robots taking over from posters in this thread shows a stunning level of ignorance on economics.

Also, greed and self-interest are governing rules. One should not be expected not to act in their greed and self-interest. If I'm an investor, I am looking at the whole picture of the company, and if it's not paying out enough for investors, then I absolutely sell with my self-interest in mind.
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:56 PM   #88
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Re: socialism has never worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spewmachine View Post
one hope i have is that technology might have such an overwhelming success that capitalism itself will be unprofitable, as you just need the raw materials for a 3D-printer which can design anything
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there are diffrent theories of socialism, but the basic idea is that the workers will overtake the workingplace and manage it by themselves.
LOL. Socialism is a joke.
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Old 05-07-2017, 06:11 PM   #89
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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fyp.
I'm always surprised how libertarians think their Econ 101 insights are somehow revolutionary.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:09 AM   #90
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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I'm always surprised how libertarians think their Econ 101 insights are somehow revolutionary.
and maximum liberty for all even those too stupid to make decisions on stuff
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:09 AM   #91
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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LOL. Socialism is a joke.
wow, tell me more
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:16 AM   #92
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Re: socialism has never worked?

I don't mean to burst the socialists bubble, BUT, are you serious with this notion that another industrial revolution with AI and robots will usher in a socialist paradise? I mean, take it to RGT, imho. Or just talk to an econ professor sometime.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:35 AM   #93
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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I don't mean to burst the socialists bubble, BUT, are you serious with this notion that another industrial revolution with AI and robots will usher in a socialist paradise? I mean, take it to RGT, imho. Or just talk to an econ professor sometime.
You can't even follow your own arguments. The LOL Socialism is a joke was a reference to workers control of their workplaces not a socialist utopia being brought about by robots and AI.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:24 AM   #94
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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You can't even follow your own arguments. The LOL Socialism is a joke was a reference to workers control of their workplaces not a socialist utopia being brought about by robots and AI.
[x] - Reading comprehension fail
[x] - on your part
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:05 AM   #95
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Re: socialism has never worked?

The basic idea being this one

Quote:
there are diffrent theories of socialism, but the basic idea is that the workers will overtake the workingplace and manage it by themselves.
Not lol robots, but sound you want to just troll socialists carry on.
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:16 AM   #96
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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The basic idea being this one



Not lol robots, but sound you want to just troll socialists carry on.
So you're banking that no one will read both quotes that I quoted in that reply? Lie of omition on your part. Go back to #88 and read again!
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:22 AM   #97
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Re: socialism has never worked?

Socialist polices like free health care and education work well in complimenting capitalism which has gotten out of control admittedly.

A socialist state with no free market though? If you believe that can work you are as deluded as ancaps.
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:47 AM   #98
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Socialist polices like free health care and education work well in complimenting capitalism which has gotten out of control admittedly.

A socialist state with no free market though? If you believe that can work you are as deluded as ancaps.
99% of all "ancap derails" are caused by non-ancaps fyi. I do think a lot of people in this thread would benefit from Econ 101 though. Milton Friedman's video series is freely accessible.

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Old 05-08-2017, 07:54 AM   #99
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
So you're banking that no one will read both quotes that I quoted in that reply? Lie of omition on your part. Go back to #88 and read again!
Socialism doesn't have much to say about AI and robots like, it does say something about the social ownership of the means of production distribution and exchange. If you're criticising lol robots then it's lol socialists rather than lol socialism.
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:17 AM   #100
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Socialist polices like free health care and education work well in complimenting capitalism which has gotten out of control admittedly.

A socialist state with no free market though? If you believe that can work you are as deluded as ancaps.
Sure, if you think so, then just socialize as much as you can. The US has about 15 trillion dollars over 10 years it needs to spend to equal the Nordic countries on social programs like lowering the workweek, free childcare, free sick days, etc. And that's just to catch up.

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 05-08-2017 at 08:45 AM.
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