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Old 05-18-2017, 06:48 AM   #226
Black Peter
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by Paul D View Post
I actually made a point. You're just not apt enough to have seen it per usual. Go back to shouting about how capitalism is so great and taxes are theft (like you did for many years) while using an example of a mixture of the two.
He apparently loves the Hong Kong system of free universal health care and low rent government housing, so maybe he's not a hard core capitalist after all. Sounds more like a confused leftist.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:31 PM   #227
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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He apparently loves the Hong Kong system of free universal health care and low rent government housing, so maybe he's not a hard core capitalist after all. Sounds more like a confused leftist.
You have to cite your claims according to forum rules, btw. You are making conversation difficult, which perhaps you find to your advantage, like when you claimed I strawmanned you. You obviously have no qualms about strawmanning in general.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:07 PM   #228
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
You have to cite your claims according to forum rules, btw. You are making conversation difficult, which perhaps you find to your advantage, like when you claimed I strawmanned you. You obviously have no qualms about strawmanning in general.
I have already cited the claims that HK has universal health care and low-rent public housing. You clearly said that you liked HK as a shining example of your kind of capitalism. No strawman there. You just feel used bc you really had no idea what goes on in HK. lol
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:16 PM   #229
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Re: socialism has never worked?

The only links you posted were from HuffPo (liberal blog) and Wiki, and neither were relevant because I am not talking about HK today (as I have already stated). So you have not cited anythink about HK after tranfered to British rule. You implied wo eveidence that it was a form of British socialism, and I am waiting patiently for you to cite your implication or withdraw it as you stupidly strawman me and gripe about me claiming you favor heavily regulated capitalism which is what you precisely said. Your position is purposely murky, and you have no counter point to my position that I can use an example wo adopting all policies. Basically, you'll find any flaw in any example to prevent me from using examples overall, and show no interest in discussing those flaws and their implications.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:59 AM   #230
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Re: socialism has never worked?

I even underlined and bolded the date. You're just getting triggered now bc you used HK as an example without having a clue about it. Lol
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:15 AM   #231
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Re: socialism has never worked?

That was public housing. What about the universal health care? I'm still waiting.

I mean, seriously, some public housing after a fire instead of letting the free market handle it means that it's "heavily regulated capitalism", who are you trying to fool? This happens all the time, government reacting to a catastrophy. Good thing government was in control of the levees before hurricane Katrina in 2005, and it was a public good. Oh wait!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_l...er_New_Orleans
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:53 AM   #232
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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I mean, seriously, some public housing after a fire instead of letting the free market handle it means that it's "heavily regulated capitalism", who are you trying to fool? This happens all the time, government reacting to a catastrophy. Good thing government was in control of the levees before hurricane Katrina in 2005, and it was a public good. Oh wait!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_l...er_New_Orleans
LOL... another strawman. You're so cute when you're desperate.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:57 AM   #233
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
That was public housing. What about the universal health care? I'm still waiting.
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Because of the extended duration of British colonial rule, the health care systems of HK have loosely mirrored the traditional National Health Service system in the UK.5 Where Hong Kong's provided programs and services differ from the characteristic National Health Service system in the UK can be found in Hong Kong's typical medical institution management mode. The Food and Health Bureau is responsible for forming policies and allocating resources to run Hong Kong's health services most efficaciously. This bureau also ensures that these policies are carried out effectively to protect and promote public health, provide lifelong holistic health care to every Hong Kong citizen, and to ensure that no one is denied adequate medical treatment due to lack of means, which is also the basic idea of HK's medical care.

The HA is a statutory administrative body that manages all the public hospitals and health institutes in HK. It is board governed and under the auspices of the Secretary for Food and Health of the HK Government. The HA has been providing services to the public under a cluster-based structure since 1993.7 It currently manages 42 public hospitals and institutions, 48 specialist outpatient clinics, and 73 general outpatient clinics. These facilities are organized into seven hospital clusters, each of which comprises a mix of acute and convalescent or rehabilitation hospitals to provide a full range of healthcare services.

In 1990, a new health administration system was introduced. The department became the Department of Health in 1991, wherein the management of all the public hospitals was passed to a new statutory body, the HA, which had been established in 1990 under the HA Ordinance.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...26490115001458



Ouch! That's gotta hurt! When did the Brits leave again? hahahaha

Dude, you actually provided one of the best examples of why free health care WORKS!
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:24 AM   #234
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Re: socialism has never worked?

1. Why would it "hurt"? I don't understand/appreciate your high school mentality. I am more interested in something more resembling a formal debate w/ evidence, etc.
2. 1993 is much later than the 50s. If your point is that there was universal health care before the British left, then sure, but nobody was arguing that. The discussion has been how much of a free-market example is/was HK over the years. You seem to think it's binary (because you try to score points on a jocky scoreboard, 7-0), either 100% ACist or your murky stance on heavily regulated capitalism, and there's no area inbetween.

Pretty much any historical example shows a trend towards more government over the years.

You really have to wrap yourself in knots to say that the New Orleans levies are not a good example, and some 50 years later health care in HK is an example of "heavily regulated capitalism". I do not envy you going through all these mental gymnastics.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 05-19-2017 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:25 AM   #235
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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LOL... another strawman. You're so cute when you're desperate.
I don't think you know what strawman is as your exact words were "heavily regulated capitalism". I mean according to you, government is necessary for public goods like levees otherwise there would be tragedies. There are plenty of examples of "heavily regulated capitalism" that are not all that good. The US housing market before the housing boom/bust is another example. But, you had nothing to say about that other than to cry "greed" as though there is this intangible force called "greed" that is inflicted everywhere, and is at the same time chimerical.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:31 AM   #236
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Re: socialism has never worked?

How different would you say "public housing" in Hong Kong is from the "public levees" in New Orleans in terms of public goods? It seems to me you are entirely hell-bent on seeing only one side of the argument.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:52 AM   #237
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Re: socialism has never worked?

Also to be clear, the first "strawman" was me quoting you "verbatim".
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:07 PM   #238
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Re: socialism has never worked?

You brought up HK as a beacon of free capitalism. But you didn't know that they have universal health care and low-rent housing. Now you're trying every desperate strawman you can think of to avoid admitting that you love free health care and taxpayer-funded housing. LOL
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:20 PM   #239
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
You brought up HK as a beacon of free capitalism. But you didn't know that they have universal health care and low-rent housing. Now you're trying every desperate strawman you can think of to avoid admitting that you love free health care and taxpayer-funded housing. LOL socialism has never worked?
Holy non sequitor batman.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:23 PM   #240
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
I don't think you know what strawman is as your exact words were "heavily regulated capitalism". I mean according to you, government is necessary for public goods like levees otherwise there would be tragedies. There are plenty of examples of "heavily regulated capitalism" that are not all that good. The US housing market before the housing boom/bust is another example. But, you had nothing to say about that other than to cry "greed" as though there is this intangible force called "greed" that is inflicted everywhere, and is at the same time chimerical.
Repeat.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:23 PM   #241
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
1. Why would it "hurt"? I don't understand/appreciate your high school mentality. I am more interested in something more resembling a formal debate w/ evidence, etc.
2. 1993 is much later than the 50s. If your point is that there was universal health care before the British left, then sure, but nobody was arguing that. The discussion has been how much of a free-market example is/was HK over the years. You seem to think it's binary (because you try to score points on a jocky scoreboard, 7-0), either 100% ACist or your murky stance on heavily regulated capitalism, and there's no area inbetween.

Pretty much any historical example shows a trend towards more government over the years.

You really have to wrap yourself in knots to say that the New Orleans levies are not a good example, and some 50 years later health care in HK is an example of "heavily regulated capitalism". I do not envy you going through all these mental gymnastics.
Repeat.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:25 PM   #242
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Re: socialism has never worked?

Even w/ the housing and health care, I can't really think of many better examples of free market capitalism than Hong Kong. Taxes were very low, and it was not hard to set-up a business relatively free from regulation. Though I do admit I am speaking in relative terms, I never pretended not to.
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Old Yesterday, 09:02 AM   #243
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
So what communist countries can you think of besides Cuba? I mean, many of the 'ole countries are more capitalist than they use to be, such as Russia for example after the break-up of the Soviet Union, China which encourages entrepreneurship through favors driven by the Communist Party, Vietnam also more capitalist. I mean, it's hard to think of examples of true communism in today's world without peaking at wiki, etc. I guess you could say North Korea, but even they now have a stock market. I wonder if it is even possible to name a country without a McDonalds.
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Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
I wasn't trying to give you a pop quiz. I was pointing out that communism is a real ideology that was only imperfectly instantiated in the Soviet Union, Venezuela, Cuba, China, Vietnam, or any of the communist countries in history. That doesn't mean those weren't communist countries. You shouldn't limit the definition of a free-market country by requiring a compromise-free version of capitalism either.
Got this from SMP. Emphasis added is mine.

See, you basically want to confide me to using examples that don't exist before talking about free market capitalism. Nobody thinks that's reasonable.
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Old Yesterday, 10:46 AM   #244
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Re: socialism has never worked?

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Old Yesterday, 12:54 PM   #245
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Re: socialism has never worked?

TCOT memes are the best
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