The problem is both of them, and they're in conflict with each other. Hence why I'm undecided. Maybe fewer women come forward, but the greater reporting leads to more convictions overall. Or less. It's not clear which is true.

What? Again, how do you think this works. It's not like rolling a die, are you asking for the cops to investigate a rape the victim claims didn't happen? Are we asking for the police to encourage fabrications?

I realize empathy for anyone, much less a woman, is a tough slog on these interwebs, but seriously think through step by step what you're asking for here. Not in generalities, in specifics. A girl thinks she may have been raped, she tells SOMEONE(anyone? We're down to RAs being liable, are just regular students under that umbrella too?), that person has an obligation to tell the police, who then... what? What do the cops do here that fixes the problem?

No.

The point of my "specific policy" question isn't as an exercise in drafting a new law, it's for you to really think about what's going on here. What problem are you trying to solve? What solution to that problem do you have?

Because mandatory reporting is, as described in this thread, not a "bad idea" that I disagree with for reasons X, Y, and Z. It's utterly incoherent nonsense, it's a nonsolution to a problem that doesn't exist.

What group of school employees are learning about rapes and preventing the victims from reporting those crimes to the police? That's the problem mandatory reporting solves.

Like the reason mandatory reporting for child/elder/disabled abuse is a good idea is because those people literally cannot report their own victimhood, and the concern behind that mandatory reporting isn't primarily to get criminal convictions for the abusers, it's to remove the victim from the abuse. How does that connect with rape?

Again, I hate to harp on this, but go back and read the thread. DIB was doing his "ban schools from punishing students" thing, people were mean to him, Brian felt that SMP-standard need to white knight for any idiot on the internet liberals were being mean to...


but didn't understand the discussion so it took him a couple of tries to get to nonspecific and pointless mandatory reporting as a walk back, without ever really acknowledging that he's changed his mind. So when you say,
Brian disagrees! That's literally the subject of this thread! DIB wants colleges to not punish accused rapists(felons?), Brian jumped in to agree with him. That's why this thread exists.

Have you done any research into how many rape accusations turn into convictions?

Of the rapes that were reported from 2007 to 2008, only 6.5% resulted in a conviction on the charge of rape. The majority of convictions for rape resulted from an admission of guilt by the defendant, whereas less than one quarter of all those charged with rape were convicted following a successful trial.

Know what might be helpful? Learning about mandated reporting.

Even a cursory glance at relevant reading material. Because this is something "non-psychologist social workers" and others do, and is integral to understanding how this **** IRT rape allegations might work.

My point may be that your narrative doesn't have to be the one that directs this conversation. Right now, I'm trying to fix the specific problem of people thinking that "What specific policy do you want implemented to fix what specific problem?" must necessarily be the point of this thread.

Hey some people aren't up to the heavy intellectual lifting of "having an opinion on the subject", I get it. But maybe you'd be more comfortable back in SMP, then?

How many people in this thread are saying that college should not be permitted to discipline students? I certainly am not. I think that it might be wise in certain matters to bring in off-campus professionals who have no conflict of interest due to wishing to preserve an institution's reputation.

Police should have primacy when it comes to investigating possible crimes. Schools should not be conducting internal investigations first, then deciding whether or not to administer internal discipline or refer the matter to police.

When I talk about police having primacy, I mean that the college can start its own parallel investigation, but it really shouldn't be doing things like interviewing possible witnesses before the cops get to them. Is that a procedure you disagree with?

Ok and here's the thing: that doesn't happen. That isn't how it works today, and it isn't even possible. Police have jurisdiction for crimes. Schools don't decide whether to "administer internal discipline" OR "refer the matter", as if internal discipline in some way displaces or precedes criminal proceedings.

That's what I keep swearing at DIB about.

Again, at this point the issue is, again because you're discussing a fictional parallel universe, I really don't know what you mean by "the school" interviewing witnesses. You mean like at a hearing for a suspension? Who is "the school"?

But to answer your question:

DudeImBetter and BrianTheMick! That's what started this whole ****ing thing!

BrianTheMick said schools shouldn't be involved at all, Wookie laughed at how dumb it was to say "schools don't do enough, so they should do nothing", and you rode to the rescue.

Like right now, again, it's helpful because it's a specific example and some of you may not even be American, but you can Google his name to learn more:

Should FSU be permitted to hold a student conduct hearing for Jameis Winston, with possible penalties going as high as expulsion, as they currently intend to do?

DudeImBetter would say no.

BrianTheMick would say no.

I would say yes.

Absolutely. The argument to make institutions report if its reported to them isn't because it's then handled well. The police need to have firm rules as well, specialist trained personal etc. Societal attitudes also play a huge part.

In the UK the victim can get all the health services including evidence gathering without having to have it reported to the police (barring gunshot wound or some other factors). Is that true in the USA as well?

I don't care what DIB is saying. What I am saying is that there are many schools where the administration discourages rape victims from doing anything that will lead to official reporting of sexual assault. There are dozens of schools currently under investigation by the Department of Education due to Title IX complaints.

It sounds like you are denying that stuff like this happens:

I say that this is a problem and that it is not rare. Do you agree with that statement?

I say that this is one of several problems with how sexual assault at universities is handled. Do you agree with that statement?

Do you believe that FSU is sincerely interested in investigating wrong-doing or is only holding a student conduct hearing for Jameis Winston to cover their asses since this case has been public?

I think they are engaged in CYA. I think Brian would agree with me. I don't really care what DIB thinks. What do you think?

I don't care about FSU's motivations or internal campus politics, I'm not going to speculate about them, that's all completely irrelevant to this discussion I'm trying to drag you into understanding. (

This is about the policy, the individual example was just an attempt to show how disciplinary hearings are parallel to criminal proceedings. I see now that was a mistake.

Do you believe that FSU should have the AUTHORITY to hold that hearing at all, or do you, like Brian and DIB, believe they should "butt out" and leave it entirely up to the courts? Simple question.


Seriously, dude, you have no ****ing idea what's going on here. This is an offshoot of a very long thread in Politics Alpha where ikestoys and a few others, including DIB, were complaining that colleges are too tough on accused rapists, arguing that there is pervasive anti-male discrimination in college discipline for sexual assault. DIB, in fact, wants colleges to be prohibited from disciplining accused rapists! That's the argument you're involving yourself in.

Do you get it now? Does that context maybe make it click?

Systemic rapism.

I've known all along that that is your perspective. Do you get that I am interested in talking about related matter but disinterested in engaging in that long-running conversation?

No, I really don't, because of how you're refusing to "play your cards", identify what exact problem you think exists, etc.

bump for Seahawks-St. Louis game

Fly, as someone who knows what he's talking about, could you put the following into your own words?

Not all of us are "non-psychologist social workers," so as an expert of sorts maybe you can help us out.

“While we respect the seriousness with which many schools treat such internal processes [IRBs], and the good intentions and good faith of many who devote their time to participating in such processes, the simple fact is that these internal boards were designed to adjudicate charges like plagiarism, not violent felonies. The crime of rape just does not fit the capabilities of such boards. They often offer the worst of both worlds: they lack protections for the accused while often tormenting victims.”

While you're working on putting the above into your own words, consider doing the same with the following as well. Think it relates pretty directly with what we're discussing. Like, #dudeliterally.

Goofy, you can play too. Pay particular attention to the underlined, as you had questions about what role IRBs would have with murder allegations.

"The FBI, for purposes of its Uniform Crime Reports, has a hierarchy of crimes — a ranking of violent crimes in order of seriousness. Murder, of course, ranks first. Second is rape. It would never occur to anyone to leave the adjudication of a murder in the hands of a school’s internal judicial process. Why, then, is it not only common, but expected, for them to do so when it comes to sexual assault? We need to get to a point where it seems just as inappropriate to treat rape so lightly."

For those who haven't been following since the beginning, these quotes come from an organization called the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network (RAINN); the largest anti-sexual violence group in the US, and ranked as being one of the nation's top 100 charities.

Hey Dibbers, how about you email RAINN about whether or not schools should be allowed to discipline students accused of rape.

It would never occur to anyone (except certain crack pots ITF) to leave the adjudication of a murder in the hands of a school’s kangaroo court system. Why, then, Mr. Wookie, is it not only common, but expected for them to do so when it comes to sexual assault?

Yeah, it's a real shame that victims don't go to the cops more. The way to encourage that is not to prevent schools from kicking their raping students off campus.

So, guess it's safe to say you don't agree with the comment I made directly above yours?