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Old 07-24-2015, 07:52 AM   #26
kerowo
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

LOL, it's been around for 3 years, 70% of government expenditures are on the military, and prices are controlled by the democratic committees. Oh, and it's at war with ISIS who is probably getting tacit support from Turkey. Another poster child for whatever it is you ACists believe in.
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Old 07-24-2015, 08:08 AM   #27
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
...Another poster child for whatever it is you ACists believe in.
Dude, he ain't talking ACism, he's talking RWA. Murray Bookchin != Murray Rothbard.

You got your threads mixed up.
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Old 07-24-2015, 08:12 AM   #28
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

Is it any better than ACism?
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Old 07-24-2015, 08:35 AM   #29
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
Is it any better than ACism?
You're doing two things here. First, you are trying to compare apples and oranges. Whatever it is that the peeps are doing in Kurdistan is something happening in the real world. It would properly be compared to whatever else they might be doing in the real world... given their options.

Second, you're trying to AC-Jack the noob's thread. You've done it twice now. I've already explained this thread has nothing to do with ACism. At this point you are flat out trolling. Now I know that's OK here in Baja Politards... but that doesn't mean you have to do it.

I'll ask nicely: Please take you're AC-Jacking to the zombie ACer thread that you are the second volume poster in... Please ??
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Old 07-24-2015, 09:27 AM   #30
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

Shame, I'll be visiting Christiania, in Copenhagen, Denmark in a few days. I don't know how to describe the place exactly, hippy commune, anarchist state, wikipedia makes reference to both:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania
Quote:
"The objective of Christiania is to create a self-governing society whereby each and
every individual holds themselves responsible over the wellbeing of the entire community. Our society is to be economically self-sustaining and, as such, our aspiration is to be steadfast in our conviction that psychological and physical destitution can be averted."

The spirit of Christiania quickly developed into one of the hippie movement, the squatter movement, collectivism and anarchism, in contrast to the site's previous military use.
I visited the area 20 years ago when it had recently seceded from the nation, and since then it's had a tumultuous ride, getting shut down for a while in 2011, the Danish government cracking down on the drug trade, but apparently it's back. Thinking of joining up. Any idea how one would go about becoming a "citizen" of such a community?
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Old 07-24-2015, 09:40 AM   #31
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Originally Posted by Shame Trolly !!!1! View Post
You're doing two things here. First, you are trying to compare apples and oranges. Whatever it is that the peeps are doing in Kurdistan is something happening in the real world. It would properly be compared to whatever else they might be doing in the real world... given their options.

Second, you're trying to AC-Jack the noob's thread. You've done it twice now. I've already explained this thread has nothing to do with ACism. At this point you are flat out trolling. Now I know that's OK here in Baja Politards... but that doesn't mean you have to do it.

I'll ask nicely: Please take you're AC-Jacking to the zombie ACer thread that you are the second volume poster in... Please ??
Not trying to AC-jack just trying to mock the putting forth of a 3 year old war torn region in the middle-east as a beacon of righteousness. Perhaps we should see how it plays out before using it as a working example of anything.
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Old 07-24-2015, 09:53 AM   #32
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Originally Posted by Peace Equality View Post
And yet like I've already mentioned, a similar form of social organizing, inspired by Murray Bookchin's ideas, is purportedly going on in Rojava right now:

"Rojava, in northern Syria, a Kurdish region straddling the southern Turkish border, is now a remarkable experiment of Bookchin inspired autonomous democratic confederalism. In the area's major urban areas-Aleppo, Kobane and Qamishli-popular assemblies and secular grassroots councils call the shots.....Put into practice, Kurdish self-government today has three central planks: the establishment of communes, the assurance of equal participation in all areas of decision-making for all faith and ethnic groups, and the strengthening of the position of women. Communes sort out everyday administration, provide electricity provision and infrastructure, advise on nutrition and liaise around ecological concerns. There are communal cooperatives, too, like bakeries and sewing workshops, like agricultural projects. Delegates from village and neighborhood communes form the basis of bigger city councils, and city councils are made up of representatives from all communes. There aren't any law courts either, but 'peace and consensus committees,' which try to resolve legal issues in novel, consensus-finding ways." Out of Shadows by Andy Merrifield

So what were you saying about "another world"?
So, you're saying that ISIS and the US have the perfect opportunity to come together in the near future and eliminate a mutual threat?

Or were you saying that "another world" actually means "third world"?
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Old 07-24-2015, 10:02 AM   #33
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
Is it any better than ACism?
I'v remember thinking ages ago (and may have posted it but can't remember) that Shame's political vision would get as much derision as AC does and in the same manner and for much the same reasons. Only reason it doesn't happen is that it's generally not discussed and it's not thought of as right wing.

Much as anarchists oppose statist opinions they save their real dislike for slightly different theoretical versions of anarchy. As Monty Python said "Whatever happened to the popular front?"
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Old 07-24-2015, 10:28 AM   #34
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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...Not trying to AC-jack...
Thank you !!!1!

Quote:
... just trying to mock... beacon of righteousness...
Nobody is discussing 'righteousness' ITT. If they were, I'd mock them too... cause I don't even know how 'righteousness' is relevant.

What was being discussed was a characterized as a "remarkable experiment". Also note: you aren't mocking the content of this experiment. You're mocking the fact that people are even trying it to begin with. Which, once again... to do it correct would require examining what their other alternatives are.

Either way, I don't think mocking can be justified without examining the particulars on the ground in Syria.

Quote:
... a 3 year old war torn region... Perhaps we should see how it plays out before using it as a working example of anything.
This is of course, ass-backwards results oriented thinking. Did we need to wait until the fall of the Berlin Wall, to see if Euro-Communism was 'working'? Is Chinese-Communism better than Western-Capitalism because of all that shiz in Walmart? Was Euro-Fascism better than what the peeps had going in Spain 1936-1939. Would a slavery based society be 'better' if the CSA had won the Civil War? Is it better right now that, world wide, woman are oppressed... because basically right now woman are oppressed?

Besides that, you really need a basic understanding of how these kinda revolutions have worked out in history. War torn regions are the norm... starting with the Paris Commune of 1871. There French government withdrew their army to surrender the city, with the understanding the Prussian Army would then occupy the city. In the meantime the people of Paris raised up against them both.

The same situation prevailed in the Ukraine, and Manchuria during the 1920s, and Spain, as we have been discussing, in the 1930s. In all cases the large scale autonomous communities were between warring factions, fighting a war of survival themselves. In all these cases, after a few short years, they were militarily defeated.
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Old 07-24-2015, 11:07 AM   #35
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Originally Posted by FoldnDark View Post
Shame, I'll be visiting Christiania, in Copenhagen, Denmark in a few days... Thinking of joining up. Any idea how one would go about becoming a "citizen" of such a community?
I've never been there, and know nothing in particular about it. What I do know in general is was a closed military base, that was squated, and that squat has been tolerated for decades now. The Danish police have tolerated people living there, and have tolerated a varying degree of drugs over the years... but it's hardly 'seceded territory' or a lawless 'combat zone' or such.

As such, there isn't anything to become a 'citizen' of. Unless you are planning on becoming a resident, there's nothing to 'join'.

However, if the squat itself is actually organized and run horizontally (aka the RWA way), there will certainly be a multitude of public meetings, held on a regular basis, that you would be welcome to attend, and quite likely participate in if you cared to. Also, there is a never ending amount of busy work that needs to get done to run a committee, or a community, those dishes don't wash themselves. I'm sure tourist-volunteers are welcome too. I'd check out a translation of www.christiania.org if I were you... Google would be your friend.
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Old 07-24-2015, 05:15 PM   #36
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Originally Posted by FoldnDark View Post
Thinking of joining up. Any idea how one would go about becoming a "citizen" of such a community?
I think I've read somewhere that there are 20k people on the waiting list alone.

In Europe, Athens to be exact, there is Exarchia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tvwSwp1TmU
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Old 08-11-2015, 07:39 PM   #37
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Originally Posted by 27AllIn View Post
The thing is that on the collectivist side of things there's no answer for: Who will clean the toilets?...
Of course, this is ridiculous. We have plenty of examples of RWA both historically and right now today. The toilets are being cleaned. LMFAO @ LTers !!!1!

Quote:
...Or if you're against hierarchy: What if a bunch of dummies want to run the company?...
Well, if we have a company organized under autogestion (aka worker self-management) why would a bunch of dummies be allowed to run anything? OTOH, if the 5th generation inherited trust-fund babes happen to be idiots... well I guess everyone is going to suffer... well, except for those 5th generation trust fund idiots, of course. LMFAO @ LTers !!!1!
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Old 08-12-2015, 05:59 AM   #38
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

have to lol at the idea that when something that when something that would be dismissed as impossible happens a bit it isn't because of the weakness of the eagerness to 'dismiss as impossible'

Very few things are impossible especially small or short lived versions. For some 'impossible' means little more than 'don't like the sound of that plus it hasn't happened'.
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Old 08-29-2015, 06:08 PM   #39
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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For some 'impossible' means little more than 'don't like the sound of that plus it hasn't happened'.
Well, whether on a large or small scale, it has happened and is happening, like it or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK_Zsa2EAqA
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Old 08-31-2015, 08:00 PM   #40
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

Possible? Sure whatever. Still, who will dig the ditches? These types of societies will always fail. Eventually, some people will believe that they are too good to dig the ditches when their time comes. How do you ensure that everyone helps to dig the ditches, when( not if) they refuse?
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:07 AM   #41
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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... These types of societies will always fail... people... dig the ditches when their time comes. How do you ensure that everyone helps to dig the ditches...
LOL no.

I'm sure an argument could be made that those types of societies, societies that are based on everyone having an assigned time to dig ditches, always happen to fail. In theory at least... because I can't imagine there are any historical examples.

WTF does this have to do with the OP ??
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:53 AM   #42
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Originally Posted by dstock View Post
Possible? Sure whatever. Still, who will dig the ditches? These types of societies will always fail. Eventually, some people will believe that they are too good to dig the ditches when their time comes. How do you ensure that everyone helps to dig the ditches, when( not if) they refuse?
Thirty-five years ago Judge Smails was all over this ****!
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:06 AM   #43
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

"In an anarchist society, solidarity would replace individualism; mutual aid would prevail on competition; altruism on egoism; spirituality on materialism; the local on the global."

"Unfortunately, the Spanish anarchist utopia did not last long."

How else are you going to have a utopian anarchist society? You must be lol stupid if you don't believe that there will always be people who are looking to game the system, people who will look for more power, more anything, more everything. It is the disease of more.

Ideal societies are cute, reality is what you should be concerned with. Believe in the former and deny the latter if you wish.
"if you're not a rebel by the age of 20, you got no heart, but if you haven't turned establishment by 30, you've got no brains."
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:17 AM   #44
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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... How else are you going to have a utopian anarchist society? ...
Well, the use of the word 'utopian' in that article is unfortunate. Rest assured that the CNT/FAI weren't embarked on any Utopian building enterprise.

Quote:
...You must be lol stupid if you don't believe that there will always be people who are looking to game the system, people who will look for more power, more anything, more everything. It is the disease of more...
Yeah, and there's always going to be people into OOP. Thanks, Captain Obvious. What is your next pearl of wisdom... 'don't piss into the wind', perhaps.

Quote:
... Ideal societies are cute, reality is what you should be concerned with...
Once again, the CNT/FAI in 1930s Spain wasn't involved in some quest to build some "cute ideal society". They were very much engaged in reality... in fact they were fighting in a war against pan-euro-fascism, widely considered a warm up to WWII. You really can't get more 'concerned with reality' than that.
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Old 09-02-2015, 03:21 AM   #45
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Originally Posted by Shame Trolly !!!1! View Post



Once again, the CNT/FAI in 1930s Spain wasn't involved in some quest to build some "cute ideal society". They were very much engaged in reality... in fact they were fighting in a war against pan-euro-fascism, widely considered a warm up to WWII. You really can't get more 'concerned with reality' than that.
Yeah, and if they would have won, then what? How long until they revert back? One generation? Two? Would it last?

Another world is Possible. Define possible. One outer on the river? Much less than that me thinks.

But hey, you get to read snappy quotes like this- "Changing the current global framework of rules first necessitates an individual ideological liberation that can only come through self-awareness. To free our body we must first free our mind."
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Old 09-02-2015, 09:35 AM   #46
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Yeah, and if they would have won, then what? How long until they revert back? One generation? Two? Would it last?...
Well, who knows? We do know that folks had been organizing for about 100yrs before the 1930s... so that was more than two generations, without any sign of this 'reverting back' you speak of. And that was under a situation of extreme violent oppression... you know death squads and such. I think it would be reasonable to assume folks would stick with what's working, even more so, when you take away that level violent repression.

We do know this: what they were fighting against, and what won, pan-euro-fascism, did only last a generation or so... before 'reverting back'. Franco's regime lasted from 1939-1975. So history says you got things ass-backwards. LMFAO @U !!!1!

Quote:
... Another world is Possible. Define possible. One outer on the river? Much less than that me thinks...
One thing we know for sure is this... you haven't thought about this at all. Not even in the slightest.

All you've done ITT is regurgitate stupid bromides... gee, like any dude past his 20s will naturally wanna be pro-establishment. What a buncha crap. I'll tell you what is true... no dude who isn't both (a) in his 20s himself, and (b) are naturally, already, and pathetically pro-establishment himself... would even parrot that stupid bromide.

That's you... right ??

Last edited by Shame Trolly !!!1!; 09-02-2015 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 09-04-2015, 07:37 PM   #47
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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Possible? Sure whatever. Still, who will dig the ditches? These types of societies will always fail. Eventually, some people will believe that they are too good to dig the ditches when their time comes. How do you ensure that everyone helps to dig the ditches, when( not if) they refuse?
There's this thing called "necessity". If it needs to get done then it will conceivably get done. Suppose there are a few individuals who just won't do certain kinds of work? Then appeal to those who will.

In the kibbutz movement, the physical work was done the young and able-bodied while the administrative or office work was performed by the more senior members of the community. And in some cases, if you had lived and worked their for a certain period of time you were allowed to move into the larger houses. A way probably could be found.
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Old 09-05-2015, 01:05 AM   #48
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

i'd like an honest answer. why do you care?
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:52 PM   #49
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

There is nothing to stop anyone from creating an anarchist city in the United States. There are some already (communes or intentional communities). There is nothing preventing someone from starting a corporation where everyone is paid the same. If you keep everyone's wages down you won't have to pay Federal income taxes. You can live in a state with no income taxes and no sales taxes.

One year, 1936, does not make another world.
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Old 09-05-2015, 07:42 PM   #50
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Re: "Another World is Possible"

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There is nothing to stop anyone from creating an anarchist city in the United States. There are some already (communes or intentional communities). There is nothing preventing someone from starting a corporation where everyone is paid the same. If you keep everyone's wages down you won't have to pay Federal income taxes. You can live in a state with no income taxes and no sales taxes.

One year, 1936, does not make another world.
People are doing this all over the world:

Exarchia, Greece


Christiania, Denmark


Marinaleda, Spain


The point of the article should be clear, there is an alternative to the dominant system. It just uses 1936 to illustrate one of modern histories most profound examples.
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