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Old 09-12-2016, 05:21 PM   #201
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by jjshabado View Post
This is great and all... but everytime you talk/post you can't be expected to do a full thousand page thesis with data and examples showing the entirety of the black experience in America.
well, ****.
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Old 09-12-2016, 05:23 PM   #202
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by 5ive View Post
I don't mean what IS TRUE, I mean what an idiot believes.
This is exactly the same as your silly rage argument above. So, slightly rephrased:

And I don't care what the idiots of the world believe. There are no examples that would make them believe racism still exists because they start from the premise of 'racism doesn't exist and things are so much better for the black person than they were 50 years ago'. If you refuse to use any argument that doesn't convince an idiot - you're part of the problem. Because its effectively you saying you won't make any argument.
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Old 09-12-2016, 06:12 PM   #203
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by ReidLockhart View Post
I think this is a good spot to just slide this in here. I think about this every time anyone says blacks aren't oppressed in this country. It's only 40 seconds long. You have nothing to lose by watching this real quick.

I have mixed feelings about Jane Elliot. While I think she has good intentions, her reasoning was very different than what I was raised with and taught. The idea of recognizing and acknowledging our differences in race and culture conflicted against my own beliefs of dismissing our differences and concentrating on what makes us similar.

I'm still conflicted about her message.
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Old 09-12-2016, 06:29 PM   #204
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Re: Kaepernick

Before I looked slightly to the left, I would have guessed that mongidig's account would be less than 3 months old and have at most 50 posts. I guess we all have biases.
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Old 09-12-2016, 06:41 PM   #205
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by jjshabado View Post
This is exactly the same as your silly rage argument above. So, slightly rephrased:

And I don't care what the idiots of the world believe. There are no examples that would make them believe racism still exists because they start from the premise of 'racism doesn't exist and things are so much better for the black person than they were 50 years ago'. If you refuse to use any argument that doesn't convince an idiot - you're part of the problem. Because its effectively you saying you won't make any argument.
You're taking a tangential counterpoint I said in response to chezlaw and applying it to our thing. Specifically:

Quote:
anecdotes are hard to beat as an intro. Plus If you get lucky the person who hears them will encounter a similar situation one day and it will chime.
Regardless, who is the audience then? To whom is Stewart speaking?

I'll say it again: I'm talking about Stewart and the specific platform he had, not Joe Blow. I encourage Joe to say and/or do anything.
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Old 09-12-2016, 06:46 PM   #206
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Re: Kaepernick

jjshabado,

Lol, oops, somehow I missed your first reply... I might have to reframe everything.


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Originally Posted by jjshabado View Post
I'm not sure why it matters and I never claimed it was a filmed segment. It's worse as a filmed segment, imo. And affirmative examples (aka showing racism exist) aren't equivalent to negative examples. Because logic and all.

And I don't care that it makes the mongidigs of the world rage more. There are no examples that wouldn't make them rage more because they start from the premise of 'racism doesn't exist and things are so much better for the black person than they were 50 years ago'. If you refuse to make any argument that will enrage the mongidigs of the world - you're part of the problem. Because they've been making the same arguments for hundreds of years.

The point of the anecdote is to show the lazily ignorant but still generally well meaning (aka, the majority of people) that black people still face discrimination every single day. And while lots of the individual examples might seem trivial it would clearly get exhausting over time.

Edit: And to be clear - it wasn't even an anecdote. Stewart was saying it happens all the time when they do these things. He wasn't describing a one-off thing that happened.
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Old 09-12-2016, 08:16 PM   #207
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by 5ive View Post
Regardless, who is the audience then? To whom is Stewart speaking?

I'll say it again: I'm talking about Stewart and the specific platform he had, not Joe Blow. I encourage Joe to say and/or do anything.
I dont know but probably a fair bit wider than it's obvious target audience.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:44 PM   #208
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Re: Kaepernick

[QUOTE=Pipedreamer101;50758181]This is arguably the most ridiculous thing said/posted in this thread...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE

It's not!

In theory, people should be able to look and dress any way they want. In reality, if dressing a certain way makes you a target, then you should change the way you dress if you value your safety. It's sad , but true. Unfortunately, a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of you. Anybody walking around in a hoodie might look suspicious.

It would be in advisable to put antlers on your head and walk around in the woods during elk hunting season...So!
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:08 PM   #209
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
It would be in advisable to put antlers on your head and walk around in the woods during elk hunting season...So!
Putting antlers on your head doesn't make you an elk, and wearing a hoodie doesn't make you suspicious.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:37 PM   #210
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Re: Kaepernick

[QUOTE=mongidig;50776599]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pipedreamer101 View Post
This is arguably the most ridiculous thing said/posted in this thread...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE

It's not!

In theory, people should be able to look and dress any way they want. In reality, if dressing a certain way makes you a target, then you should change the way you dress if you value your safety. It's sad , but true. Unfortunately, a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of you. Anybody walking around in a hoodie might look suspicious.

It would be in advisable to put antlers on your head and walk around in the woods during elk hunting season...So!
Itt we learn that Mongidig thinks all those rape victims were deserving.

You shouldn't dress that way if you don't want a dickin girls!

What scummy ****ing views.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:42 PM   #211
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
I have mixed feelings about Jane Elliot. While I think she has good intentions, her reasoning was very different than what I was raised with and taught. The idea of recognizing and acknowledging our differences in race and culture conflicted against my own beliefs of dismissing our differences and concentrating on what makes us similar.

I'm still conflicted about her message.
Race and culture aren't bad things that need to be ignored. What she's talking about in that clip is the way society "treats" black citizens.
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Old 09-13-2016, 01:20 AM   #212
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
I have mixed feelings about Jane Elliot. While I think she has good intentions, her reasoning was very different than what I was raised with and taught. The idea of recognizing and acknowledging our differences in race and culture conflicted against my own beliefs of dismissing our differences and concentrating on what makes us similar.

I'm still conflicted about her message.
You've been taught to "ignore" or "dismiss" the differences as though they are bad things and that you should like those people IN SPITE of their color or whatever the difference is. It's a backwards way to look at it. You really have to be intellectually honest with yourself to get all the way there.

I'm a racist. I don't want to be. I do everything I think I can to not be, but I've been taught wrong my whole life. I can fairly say that I'm one of the least racist people I know, but I'm still a racist. My initial thoughts when presented with situations or scenarios are not the thoughts that I can logically lead myself to. It's not automatic yet and I fear it never will be. But acknowledging that I have a problem and that it exists is the only way I'll ever be better about it.
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:22 AM   #213
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Re: Kaepernick

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Putting antlers on your head doesn't make you an elk, and wearing a hoodie doesn't make you suspicious.
Sorry, this is simply incorrect. In general, we make assumptions based on how people are dressed.
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:25 AM   #214
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by ReidLockhart View Post
You've been taught to "ignore" or "dismiss" the differences as though they are bad things and that you should like those people IN SPITE of their color or whatever the difference is. It's a backwards way to look at it. You really have to be intellectually honest with yourself to get all the way there.
No, I do not believe our differences are "bad". I just believe they are different. Some cultural attitudes are better or worse towards certain topics, but I don't dismiss them as automatically bad at all.

Quote:
I'm a racist. I don't want to be. I do everything I think I can to not be, but I've been taught wrong my whole life. I can fairly say that I'm one of the least racist people I know, but I'm still a racist. My initial thoughts when presented with situations or scenarios are not the thoughts that I can logically lead myself to. It's not automatic yet and I fear it never will be. But acknowledging that I have a problem and that it exists is the only way I'll ever be better about it.
I think this is pretty sad, truthfully. You don't sound like a racist and it seems you don't act like one. I don't see why you think of yourself as a racist unless you keep catching yourself thinking racist thoughts. If you automatically assume you are racist because you are White, I don't know how to respond.

I don't believe I'm a racist. I treat people fairly and equally, at least, I believe I do. But, I'm not White, so it's possible we simply look at things completely differently.
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:28 AM   #215
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Re: Kaepernick

If im white do i need to stop wearing a hoodie because sometimes i wear one....
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:38 AM   #216
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Re: Kaepernick

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If im white do i need to stop wearing a hoodie because sometimes i wear one....
It depends on the reactions you get. We are obviously talking about it being pulled up. If you pulled it up and don't like the way you are treated, maybe you should consider not wearing it.

There are women who don't like to wear makeup, yet we have seen time and time again that people react better to women that do. It is their choice, and I'm totally fine with their choice, but them complaining about how people respond differently to that choice isn't really valid.

I went to a training seminar yesterday. The attire is usually business casual but sometimes people under dress at these courses (jeans and a polo/golf shirt). One older White gentleman showed up in sneakers, basketball shorts and a Nike workout type shirt. I immediately thought he was a low class scumbag for dressing like that in a professional setting. I have no real reason to think of him in that light, but I did. Appearance matters.
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:51 AM   #217
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Re: Kaepernick

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It depends on the reactions you get. We are obviously talking about it being pulled up. If you pulled it up and don't like the way you are treated, maybe you should consider not wearing it.
Sometimes when its cold i pull it up. No reactions yet. Wonder if the whiteness has something to do with it.

Quote:
There are women who don't like to wear makeup, yet we have seen time and time again that people react better to women that do. It is their choice, and I'm totally fine with their choice, but them complaining about how people respond differently to that choice isn't really valid.

I went to a training seminar yesterday. The attire is usually business casual but sometimes people under dress at these courses (jeans and a polo/golf shirt). One older White gentleman showed up in sneakers, basketball shorts and a Nike workout type shirt. I immediately thought he was a low class scumbag for dressing like that in a professional setting. I have no real reason to think of him in that light, but I did. Appearance matters.
Not for me in my hoodie. Lucky im white.

Last edited by batair; 09-13-2016 at 03:54 AM. Reason: maybe we should go back to calling them sweatshirts.
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Old 09-13-2016, 04:13 AM   #218
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by jjshabado View Post
I'm not sure why it matters and I never claimed it was a filmed segment. It's worse as a filmed segment, imo. And affirmative examples (aka showing racism exist) aren't equivalent to negative examples. Because logic and all.

And I don't care that it makes the mongidigs of the world rage more. There are no examples that wouldn't make them rage more because they start from the premise of 'racism doesn't exist and things are so much better for the black person than they were 50 years ago'. If you refuse to make any argument that will enrage the mongidigs of the world - you're part of the problem. Because they've been making the same arguments for hundreds of years.

The point of the anecdote is to show the lazily ignorant but still generally well meaning (aka, the majority of people) that black people still face discrimination every single day. And while lots of the individual examples might seem trivial it would clearly get exhausting over time.

Edit: And to be clear - it wasn't even an anecdote. Stewart was saying it happens all the time when they do these things. He wasn't describing a one-off thing that happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5ive View Post
jjshabado,

Lol, oops, somehow I missed your first reply... I might have to reframe everything.
Ok, uh, this makes more sense now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjshabado View Post
I'm not sure why it matters and I never claimed it was a filmed segment. It's worse as a filmed segment, imo. And affirmative examples (aka showing racism exist) aren't equivalent to negative examples. Because logic and all.
I agree, but what I wanted to convey was a nebulous anecdote isn't an affirmative example. Obviously this is subjective.


Quote:


And I don't care that it makes the mongidigs of the world rage more. There are no examples that wouldn't make them rage more because they start from the premise of 'racism doesn't exist and things are so much better for the black person than they were 50 years ago'. If you refuse to make any argument that will enrage the mongidigs of the world - you're part of the problem. Because they've been making the same arguments for hundreds of years.
Yeah when I said 'rage' I meant like 'righteously indignant' as opposed to rustled jimmies. So 'rage' was probably a poor choice. But I want the jimmies rustled and I don't think that particular anecdote gets the job done; too much room for hand-waving.

Quote:
The point of the anecdote is to show the lazily ignorant but still generally well meaning (aka, the majority of people) that black people still face discrimination every single day. And while lots of the individual examples might seem trivial it would clearly get exhausting over time.
I don't think they're trivial, that's the point. That's why I thought you were referencing something else, that they did a hidden camera expose thing. There's a difference between an event being trivial and an anecdote about that event being trivial, if that makes any sense.

Quote:
Edit: And to be clear - it wasn't even an anecdote. Stewart was saying it happens all the time when they do these things. He wasn't describing a one-off thing that happened.
Here's the transcript:

Quick story. So we live in New York City, a liberal bastion. (scattered audience cheering) Let me finish. (audience laughter) Recently, we sent a correspondent and a producer to a building in this liberal bastion, where we were going to tape an interview. The producer — white — dressed in what can only be described as homeless elf attire, and a pretty strong 5-o'clock-from-the-previous-week shadow, strode confidently into the building preceding our humble correspondent — a gentleman of color — dressed resplendently in a tailored suit. Who do you think was stopped? Let me give you a hint: the black guy.

And that **** happens all the time. All the time. Race is there, and it is a constant. You're tired of hearing about it? Imagine how ****ing exhausting it is living it.


Like, what kind of building, and who stopped him, and for what? It's weak storytelling imo but, eh, maybe I'm crazy and it does work.

Here's the point: I'm coming from the perspective of being the white guy with a black friend/associate in these scenarios, and I have some tremendous stories of ridiculous racism. If somebody said, "pick the 'best' one," it doesn't trivialize the others, it just means there are clearly better examples than others when you're trying to make a point.
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Old 09-13-2016, 04:16 AM   #219
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Re: Kaepernick

If you're wearing a hoodie and somebody can tell your race, you need a better hoodie. You might as well be wearing a turtleneck.
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Old 09-13-2016, 04:19 AM   #220
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Re: Kaepernick

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Sometimes when its cold i pull it up. No reactions yet. Wonder if the whiteness has something to do with it.


Not for me in my hoodie. Lucky im white.
Youre over simplifying this and being dishonest. There are many factors involved when it comes to appearances. Wearing a hoodie may not be the lone factor. Your gait, other clothes and general demeanor/mannerisms are factors also.

There is a huge difference when we look at "a white guy with tats". One could be a Nazi lowrider and one could be a goofy ass hipster with non prescription glasses on. People would react extremely differently to each.

These discussions get tiresome when people aren't honest in their arguments. I don't have to prove I'm right, I know for a fact I am, and explaining it gets old.
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Old 09-13-2016, 04:20 AM   #221
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Re: Kaepernick

****in wil jfc
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Old 09-13-2016, 04:33 AM   #222
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
Youre over simplifying this and being dishonest. There are many factors involved when it comes to appearances. Wearing a hoodie may not be the lone factor. Your gait, other clothes and general demeanor/mannerisms are factors also.

There is a huge difference when we look at "a white guy with tats". One could be a Nazi lowrider and one could be a goofy ass hipster with non prescription glasses on. People would react extremely differently to each.

These discussions get tiresome when people aren't honest in their arguments. I don't have to prove I'm right, I know for a fact I am, and explaining it gets old.
I get tired of people putting blame on the victim. That people cant dress in a certain way should be the problem. Not in the way they dress.

I know they should just stop dressing that way until police can figure it out.
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Old 09-13-2016, 04:43 AM   #223
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Re: Kaepernick

We are human beings and we are prone to make assumptions through visuals. You can choose to walk around with a ski mask on if you wish but don't be surprised if people look at your with extreme suspicion. Yes, I dont think we should blame the victim but people should be aware of how their appearance affects the way they are treated.

It's trivially easy to understand. I've been on both ends of the spectrum. When I wore a baseball cap and a pulled up hoodie and a black jacket over it (years ago) I was well aware of how people viewed me. Some would cross the street, women wouldn't walk close to me. I pulled the hood down whenever I entered a building because I didn't want to be viewed as suspicious.

Again, appearance means a lot. We may not agree with it and we may not think it's fair but that's the way it is. To blame it on racism is a bad argument.
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Old 09-13-2016, 06:30 AM   #224
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post

I think this is pretty sad, truthfully. You don't sound like a racist and it seems you don't act like one. I don't see why you think of yourself as a racist unless you keep catching yourself thinking racist thoughts. If you automatically assume you are racist because you are White, I don't know how to respond.

I don't believe I'm a racist. I treat people fairly and equally, at least, I believe I do. But, I'm not White, so it's possible we simply look at things completely differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
Sorry, this is simply incorrect. In general, we make assumptions based on how people are dressed.
Maybe he's just a ****ton more self aware than you are? Punched any kids in the face lately?
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Old 09-13-2016, 08:19 AM   #225
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Kevin J View Post
Putting antlers on your head doesn't make you an elk, and wearing a hoodie doesn't make you suspicious.
True, putting antlers on your head doesn't make you an Elk. It does increase the chance that you will be mistaken for an Elk.

Wearing a hoodie doesn't make you a criminal. It does increase the chance you will be mistaken for one.
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