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Old 09-03-2016, 09:13 PM   #51
wil318466
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
100% agree. In fact, there's not much you said I disagree with so we can end it here. I just happen to think he's being a jerk because all of the focus and attention is going to him and not the actual cause. He's using the wrong venue imo.
What would make you think he's doing it to draw attention to himself, specifically? If he was doing this in a predominately black city I MAY be able to see your side of the argument, but I'm sure he anticipated that he'd get a lot of backlash for his stance. No?
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:27 PM   #52
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
I can see how simple could confuse you. Considering the racial attitudes of pretty much the entire world in the 1800's yes, the origins of the anthem are irrelevant. No one goes "that's a pretty good anthem there, too bad it's writer was so racist." You can be sadly ignorant of a lot things, the "real meaning" of the national anthem isn't one of them. It has no bearing on this protest at all.


The origins of the anthem obviously isn't the reason why is he is protesting nor is it the reason why he has gained some following. My argument which you've completely brushed over is the fact that not only is the song itself blatantly racist (see verse 4, last three sentences) but the writer of the song was actually a slave owner himself who thought black's were inferior people.
So I again I pose the question why would anyone with an inch of integrity stand for such message?


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Old 09-03-2016, 09:52 PM   #53
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by chezlaw View Post
We see this very differently. But I am at heart a punk who finds blind patriotism nauseating and sees disrespecting the flag as a good thing when there is so much systemically wrong with the country it represents. This is protest at it's bravest and finest imo - no innocent victims, gets loads of attention to the issue and carries a lot of idownside.

Disrespecting a flag is not disrespecting the people who serve in the military. It's just a flag.
Regarding the bolded, actually there isn't. Blind patriotism ftw I guess.

Thinking that Kap must not think Obama is doing a very good job of managing the Federal govt. I mean Kap is stating that blacks are oppressed in the USA. If so by whom? Kap's protest seems to be directly aimed at the Federal govt in general and the DOJ in particular. Let's say that in Fergeson, MO blacks are oppressed. If so then how can Kap's protest possibly draw attention to that specifically?
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Old 09-03-2016, 10:41 PM   #54
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
What would make you think he's doing it to draw attention to himself, specifically? If he was doing this in a predominately black city I MAY be able to see your side of the argument, but I'm sure he anticipated that he'd get a lot of backlash for his stance. No?
Kaepernick
BLM
Corruption
Police
Murder
Justice

Which of the above words do you think have been uttered the most since he decided to put on his little one man demonstration?
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Old 09-03-2016, 10:46 PM   #55
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
Kaepernick
BLM
Corruption
Police
Murder
Justice

Which of the above words do you think have been uttered the most since he decided to put on his little one man demonstration?
Good point, but I think it's inadvertant. I don't think he did it to garner attention.

If he suggested this to his agent before he did it, would you think his agent would support his decision? I would think not, but if you think otherwise I'd like to hear it. I just can't see him doing such a thing without thinking how this could be career suicide.
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:01 PM   #56
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Re: Kaepernick

Why hasn't the NFL come down on Kaep, is this a serious question? Because they ain't too dumb thats why.
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:11 PM   #57
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
Kaepernick
BLM
Corruption
Police
Murder
Justice

Which of the above words do you think have been uttered the most since he decided to put on his little one man demonstration?
Id imagine all of them have been uttered more then they were before. Which is the point of a demonstration.
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:36 PM   #58
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Re: Kaepernick

Why those who say people shouldn't be offended because the flag is just a piece of cloth

Quote:
But the arguments employed by some of Kaepernick’s defenders are themselves deeply flawed. I’m thinking in particular of those rallying to Kaepernick’s side on the grounds that the national anthem is simply a song, and the flag is just cloth — people who are offended by the protest are attaching unwarranted significance to both.

But to strip the flag of the symbolism it carries is also to sap the power of Kaepernick's protest. The flag is more than a piece of fabric — and that is precisely what gives meaning and significance to his refusal to venerate it.
The article goes on to cite some protest art that's used the American flag

http://www.mtv.com/news/2927782/black-flag/
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:42 PM   #59
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
We sure do. But I've always respected the way you think so maybe you can change my mind. It should be easy enough to do since I'm becoming more and more sour with my country's corrupt government and judicial system.
I'll try but we may be too many miles apart. Our starting point of difference is nothign to do with the problems within the USA, it's a far more fundamental point (not pecualiar to the USA) that the mentality of revering a flag is all about emotion and that its generally bad emotional feelings about patriotism, nationalism, arrogance and superiority.


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Okay, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Sure, there's no question there are things gravely wrong with some of our systems (and I'm starting to think it's almost all or at least the majority of our systems, rather than just a few). Nevertheless, there is also much I'm very grateful for...

I'm grateful I don't live in Saudi Arabia or some other backwards country that is ruled by fundamental religious laws. I'm also very grateful and have too much respect for those who serve and all the sacrifices they and their families make. And unfortunately it is sometimes the ultimate sacrifice.
You think I'm less grateful because I dont care about a flag, demand that authority earns respect before I give it and am disturbed that anyone could get upset by a piece of cloth?

Respect that is demanded of people is a very bad thing. I have to recognise I have some emotioanl investment here because of when I grew up but the tearing down of respect for the symbols of authority in the UK was a desperately needed thing imo and is part of a country growing up and facing it's true self rather than it's image.

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Totally disagree here. This is the protest of a privileged weakling. Just because he's black or part black doesn't make him a champion for BLM or even a surrogate. There is so much more this "punk" could be doing if he really cared about the cause. There are so many better and more productive ways he could be using his name and influence. Instead, he chooses the all too easy path that comes with the least amount of work attached. Sitting down for the national anthem. I'm incredulous that you find this to be brave?!
He has a priviledged position and he is making use of it to gain much publicity for a cause. Nothing weak about that and he's risking a personal backlash that makes it brave. There's no either or here, he can still do the other stuff and leverage the publciity because of what his done here.

It may not be as brave as the famous Olympic salutes but it's along the same lines.

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I disagree with this as well. The flag represents the very country that those in the military are serving! To disrespect the flag is to disrespect what they're fighting for, what many have lost their lives for, and the sacrifices they and their families are making for the country which that flag represents.
I have a lot of sympathy and respect for those who got sent to the Iraq war but scant respect for the people or countries who sent them there (that's USA and UK). The flag can confuse our values because it appeals to those bad emotions.


Quote:
I hate to use an old cliche, but it's like a husband complaining about the faults of his wife, or someone complaining about the problems at their job. If you don't like it, go find another one. There are other countries Mr. Kaepernick can go live and make his $19M a year. Oh wait...
Or he can show disrepect to what should be a largely meaningless piece of cloth. If the country can't cope then that's the countries problem.

Last edited by chezlaw; 09-03-2016 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:49 PM   #60
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by adios View Post
Thinking that Kap must not think Obama is doing a very good job of managing the Federal govt. I mean Kap is stating that blacks are oppressed in the USA. If so by whom? Kap's protest seems to be directly aimed at the Federal govt in general and the DOJ in particular. Let's say that in Fergeson, MO blacks are oppressed. If so then how can Kap's protest possibly draw attention to that specifically?
Doesn't have to be anyhting to do with Obama afiak and I dont believe awareness raising protest has to be very specific to be any good. I'm too far away to give anymore of an answer than that.
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:57 PM   #61
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Pipedreamer101 View Post
The origins of the anthem obviously isn't the reason why is he is protesting nor is it the reason why he has gained some following. My argument which you've completely brushed over is the fact that not only is the song itself blatantly racist (see verse 4, last three sentences) but the writer of the song was actually a slave owner himself who thought black's were inferior people.
So I again I pose the question why would anyone with an inch of integrity stand for such message?
Kerowo is way over simplifying. I've been meaning to post this somewhere because he desrves a mention and this seems a good opportunity.

Howard Gayle, Liverpool's first black football player and campaigner against racism in football recently refused an MBE (member of the british empire).

Quote:
There has been a lot of comment about this, so let me explain. The fact is that I felt it would be a slap in the face for so many to be part of that British empire process. When you look at what the empire did to my family and our ancestors, it just doesn’t bear credence. I would always have felt uncomfortable writing those letters after my name.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ack-footballer
Some including me have respect for him for turning down that MBE. Some have given him grief for it.
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Old 09-04-2016, 12:22 AM   #62
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
Why those who say people shouldn't be offended because the flag is just a piece of cloth

"But the arguments employed by some of Kaepernick’s defenders are themselves deeply flawed. I’m thinking in particular of those rallying to Kaepernick’s side on the grounds that the national anthem is simply a song, and the flag is just cloth — people who are offended by the protest are attaching unwarranted significance to both.

But to strip the flag of the symbolism it carries is also to sap the power of Kaepernick's protest. The flag is more than a piece of fabric — and that is precisely what gives meaning and significance to his refusal to venerate it."

The article goes on to cite some protest art that's used the American flag

http://www.mtv.com/news/2927782/black-flag/
Thats a good point that it doesn't help his argument.

Still dont think we should kowtow to the flag, one song, (could we at least vote on a new one) pledges or judges. Am i missing any kowtowing...Freedom!


I do all this stuff when it comes up and its not a big deal to go with the flow. But not feeling reverence for a flag or song does not mean you have none for those who fought for our freedoms. You dont need those symbols to be thankful.

Last edited by batair; 09-04-2016 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 09-04-2016, 06:49 AM   #63
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
We sure do. But I've always respected the way you think so maybe you can change my mind. It should be easy enough to do since I'm becoming more and more sour with my country's corrupt government and judicial system.



Okay, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Sure, there's no question there are things gravely wrong with some of our systems (and I'm starting to think it's almost all or at least the majority of our systems, rather than just a few). Nevertheless, there is also much I'm very grateful for...

I'm grateful I don't live in Saudi Arabia or some other backwards country that is ruled by fundamental religious laws. I'm also very grateful and have too much respect for those who serve and all the sacrifices they and their families make. And unfortunately it is sometimes the ultimate sacrifice.



Totally disagree here. This is the protest of a privileged weakling. Just because he's black or part black doesn't make him a champion for BLM or even a surrogate. There is so much more this "punk" could be doing if he really cared about the cause. There are so many better and more productive ways he could be using his name and influence. Instead, he chooses the all too easy path that comes with the least amount of work attached. Sitting down for the national anthem. I'm incredulous that you find this to be brave?!



I disagree with this as well. The flag represents the very country that those in the military are serving! To disrespect the flag is to disrespect what they're fighting for, what many have lost their lives for, and the sacrifices they and their families are making for the country which that flag represents.

I hate to use an old cliche, but it's like a husband complaining about the faults of his wife, or someone complaining about the problems at their job. If you don't like it, go find another one. There are other countries Mr. Kaepernick can go live and make his $19M a year. Oh wait...
With regard to the bolded.

http://www.stonekettle.com/
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Old 09-04-2016, 09:43 AM   #64
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Pipedreamer101 View Post
The origins of the anthem obviously isn't the reason why is he is protesting nor is it the reason why he has gained some following. My argument which you've completely brushed over is the fact that not only is the song itself blatantly racist (see verse 4, last three sentences) but the writer of the song was actually a slave owner himself who thought black's were inferior people.
So I again I pose the question why would anyone with an inch of integrity stand for such message?


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8 people in the country know the 4th verse of the NA, so again, this is a non-issue and has nothing to do with what this thread is about.
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Old 09-04-2016, 09:59 AM   #65
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
8 people in the country know the 4th verse of the NA, so again, this is a non-issue and has nothing to do with what this thread is about.
The basis of this thread is wether or not you support Kapernicks decision to refuse to stand for the National Anthem. Now if what I have said is true that
a) the song has racist undertones & B) the songs originator & author was a slave owner, then this should be a non argument and its becomes abundantly clear that what he did was 1000% right and no-one should have a problem with it.

So to dismiss my entire post and say that it has nothing to do with this thread and thats its "irrelevant" is abnoxiously, ignorant to say the least...
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:47 AM   #66
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Pipedreamer101 View Post

So to dismiss my entire post and say that it has nothing to do with this thread and thats its "irrelevant" is abnoxiously, ignorant to say the least...
There's a reason they don't sing that part. It's because it's not relevant anymore.

The anthem could be completely instrumental and the whole standing/sitting thing would have the exact same debate going for all the same reasons (BLM/etc). You think you've found a clever way to do....something?....to put the debate to rest. It doesn't even really matter what side of the whole thing you're on. It's just distracting from the real debate.

It's abnoxiously, ignorant. [sic]
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Old 09-04-2016, 12:00 PM   #67
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Re: Kaepernick

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There's a reason they don't sing that part. It's because it's not relevant anymore.

The anthem could be completely instrumental and the whole standing/sitting thing would have the exact same debate going for all the same reasons (BLM/etc). You think you've found a clever way to do....something?....to put the debate to rest. It doesn't even really matter what side of the whole thing you're on. It's just distracting from the real debate.

It's abnoxiously, ignorant. [sic]
And by "real debate" do you mean the debate on wether or not institutionalised racism exist's? Wether the overzealous & militarised police force needs a complete restructure? Or that African Americans are deserving of reparations for the 400+ years of overt oppression, rape, slavery and killings that were at the hands of "white America's" forefathers?
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Old 09-04-2016, 01:05 PM   #68
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Re: Kaepernick

Rutrow...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFT
...The real question is whether... it will be the moment Superman first realized he can fly. This isn’t about... the anthem. This is about understanding that players have real power...

So how can that power be used in ways other than not standing for the anthem?... on-field demonstrations... could be sent on a stage that extends from the moment of a big play to the highlights seen by millions... What if all players skipped a voluntary OTA day in order to protest... What if all players skipped all voluntary aspects... the NFL would have no choice... to make real concessions... What if the players decided... during required media availability, they will answer questions... only about social issues...
What if the players wildcatted? The story of slum lord D.Sterling being bought out of NBA (at record price) is the story of the rookie NBA commissioner standing up. Which while true, is only part of the story. If he didn't stand up when he did, the NBA players would have wildcatted the playoffs.

Speaking of the NBA, we have this news...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMZ
Nick Young will do what Colin Kaepernick did when the National Anthem is played at Lakers games...
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Old 09-04-2016, 01:46 PM   #69
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Pipedreamer101 View Post
And by "real debate" do you mean the debate on wether or not institutionalised racism exist's? Wether the overzealous & militarised police force needs a complete restructure? Or that African Americans are deserving of reparations for the 400+ years of overt oppression, rape, slavery and killings that were at the hands of "white America's" forefathers?
Yes? (Lol at adding the reparations thing to discredit the other things you listed though)
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Old 09-04-2016, 02:17 PM   #70
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Re: Kaepernick

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Originally Posted by Pipedreamer101 View Post
The basis of this thread is wether or not you support Kapernicks decision to refuse to stand for the National Anthem. Now if what I have said is true that
a) the song has racist undertones & B) the songs originator & author was a slave owner, then this should be a non argument and its becomes abundantly clear that what he did was 1000% right and no-one should have a problem with it.

So to dismiss my entire post and say that it has nothing to do with this thread and thats its "irrelevant" is abnoxiously, ignorant to say the least...
The song has racist undertones TO YOU, you care about the views of the writer of the song. This is a non-argument because ONLY YOU are bringing it up. No one else cares about what you care about in relation to this issue. So to keep bringing it up as if it has anything to do with black athletes freedom of expression is obnoxiously self aggrandizing to say the least.
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Old 09-04-2016, 03:49 PM   #71
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Re: Kaepernick

Whether you agree with Kaep or not, this is an effective means of protest that gets his message out and generates a lot of discussion with potential to change minds. While plenty of people may be offended at his "disrespect" of the flag and the country, most recognize that he has that right to offend. I'm glad the NFL is attempting to stay "neutral" and it's probably in their best interest to remain so on this issue.
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Old 09-04-2016, 05:01 PM   #72
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Re: Kaepernick

Side point: I've drawn Bengals and Panthers in a Superb Owl sweep. Should I be happy?
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Old 09-04-2016, 05:16 PM   #73
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Re: Kaepernick

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Side point: I've drawn Bengals and Panthers in a Superb Owl sweep. Should I be happy?
Yes. 8th & 4th favorites out of 32 on this site.
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Old 09-05-2016, 01:14 AM   #74
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Re: Kaepernick

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With regard to the bolded.

http://www.stonekettle.com/
That was really an excellent read! What I learned is that I was wrong to conflate the anthem and flag with paying tribute to vets. But I also learned I have no respect for Kaepernick.
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Old 09-05-2016, 01:16 AM   #75
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Re: Kaepernick

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...them/89875384/

Quote:
Soccer star Megan Rapinoe follows Colin Kaepernick in kneeling for anthem...

U.S. soccer star Megan Rapinoe knelt during the national anthem Sunday night before the Seattle Reign's game against the Chicago Red Stars "in a little nod" to NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick... "Being a gay American, I know what it means to look at the flag and not have it protect all of your liberties. It was something small that I could do and something that I plan to keep doing in the future and hopefully spark some meaningful conversation around it. It's important to have white people stand in support of people of color on this..."
NSFW ** NSFW ** NSFW
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