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Immigration and refugees Immigration and refugees

03-11-2017 , 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Alright. I think we should be moving TOWARDS a global/open borders type situation. That doesn't mean we have to do that overnight. The first step could be shoring up actual real defenses against illegal immigration, steps that are actually practical rather than investing in a border wall.

The next step is a legal path to citizenship for the undocumented people that find themselves here. Maybe that means excluding anyone who has committed a felony, those people might be out of luck, but a lot of undocumented people should get some kind of bridge to citizenship. Take the DREAMER girl who was brought here from Argentina at 7. She doesn't have any idea of what it's like to live in Argentina, deporting her there now that she's in her 20's is cruel and unusual and doesn't really make any sense. Let people like that have some way to become complete citizens so they can be more productive in our society.

As an atheist, I find all religion to have its objectionable or disagreeable parts. However, I also think that all religions are based on good principles and most practicers of each religion actually believe in, for example, The Golden Rule. We got to stop looking at Muslim people with this kind of suspicion that we don't look at other people with. 99.999% of Muslims are not terrorists or anything close to it, and I don't have the numbers but most victims of extremist violence through the world are also Muslim. Many majority Muslim populations in different countries have to "show fealty" to the Taliban or ISIS or whatever, but that doesn't mean they actually support the organizations. They are under constant threat of violence if they speak out, and the Taliban often provides assistance to local communities to help them farm and survive. So that the locals feel pressured to support and be loyal to these groups.

Another big part of the picture that doesn't get brought up very much is global warming. The climate is changing rapidly and that is displacing people. In 20 years immigration will be a much bigger problem than it is now, unless we act now to reverse the effects of global warming. And that seems very unlikely under the Trump administration, so I'm definitely worried about future immigration conflicts being worse than current ones.

A big problem with this kind of view of the world is it's complicated and nuanced and it's much easier just to say "Muslims are scary!" and "Rule of law!" But the world is a complicated place.
This is a good thoughtful post. I think you should stop with the tweets and do more of this.
03-11-2017 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElMastermind
Debating Immigration Policy at a Populist Moment

David Frum and Conor Friedersdorf go back and forth discussing immigration policy focusing on the United States.





I've been very impressed with David Frum's work lately. I disagree with him on a number of issues, but he's balanced, articulate and very well informed.

David Frum The Progressive Argument for Reducing U.S. Immigration

That seems very weak. For instance in the US we already have political parties based on ethnicity. Republicans are the party of mainly white older richer people while Democrats are the multi ethnic "newcomers" party. It's been that was for 30+ years.
03-12-2017 , 06:55 PM
We have an election this week. The Dutch may very well indeed vote in a right wing nutjob.

This is going to be a fun posting week.
03-12-2017 , 07:15 PM
I thought you weren't posting again in content threads?
03-12-2017 , 07:22 PM
I need your permission? Lololol.
03-12-2017 , 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
We have an election this week. The Dutch may very well indeed vote in a right wing nutjob.
I wouldn't hold my breath.
03-13-2017 , 12:03 PM
^^ Thats what they said bout Trump#1, son

Also, I cant get over the twisted thought process non Americans have that freedom of speech deserves to be censored...pathetically weak-passive

But there is a good reason tho, diversity and being kind to everyone kumbaya. Amirite?...which in turn ultimately leads to a world gubmint

Genius conditioning
03-13-2017 , 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
This is a good thoughtful post. I think you should stop with the tweets and do more of this.
What? A post is good and thoughtful that:

1) Promotes a world government
2) Promotes/condones/forgives illegally sneaking into a country
3) Promotes amnesty for those that have commited an illegal act
4) Promotes victimhood of members of a religion that a very large percentage of which are in favor of sharia law among other inhumane practices..

https://www.atheoryofus.net/islam-statistics/ << all graphs and stats are Pew Research and have been posted previously

5) Promotes global warming propoganda with no sources listed
6) Claims "global warming" is the cause of immigration with no sources listed

Wtf? Good at being disingenuous, full of propoganda and biased as all hell imho
03-13-2017 , 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
I need your permission? Lololol.
Sticking by what you say would at least show a measure of consistency.
03-13-2017 , 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
We have an election this week. The Dutch may very well indeed vote in a right wing nutjob.
If you believe this you can get 6/1 against Wilders becoming the next PM.

Go on.
03-14-2017 , 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoQuarter
What? A post is good and thoughtful that:

1) Promotes a world government
2) Promotes/condones/forgives illegally sneaking into a country
3) Promotes amnesty for those that have commited an illegal act
But the courts that enforce these laws have flags with fringe, so that means that the court is a maritime court and the laws aren't enforceable. You know this.


Quote:
5) Promotes global warming propoganda with no sources listed
Here's a beginner's source on global warming.
03-14-2017 , 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
We do, not necessarily because of crime but because we need to deal with an aging population (baby boomers).
Why not just pay a bunch of already-here poors cash to have more babies?
03-14-2017 , 08:09 PM
Because it's more expensive and allowing immigrants improves the lives of people already alive?
03-14-2017 , 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCowley
Why not just pay a bunch of already-here poors cash to have more babies?
Why spend money on people who will likely never pay taxes and are not, on average, as focused on their children's education when you can get eager immigrants who want a better life for their kids and will be good, tax paying citizens?
03-14-2017 , 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ball
Because it's more expensive and allowing immigrants improves the lives of people already alive?
Ok, why not pay poors cash to not have babies/have abortions and let even more immigrants in?
03-14-2017 , 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter
Why spend money on people who will likely never pay taxes and are not, on average, as focused on their children's education when you can get eager immigrants who want a better life for their kids and will be good, tax paying citizens?
What level of skilled labor do you think an immigrant family (say 2 30-yr-old parents and 2.5 kids) needs to have to be a net positive to the current americans if allowed to come?
03-15-2017 , 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCowley
Why not just pay a bunch of already-here poors cash to have more babies?
Because the racism is fused with fiscal conservativism. In reality the rich hold the poor natives in not much that higher regard than immigrants but they need their votes so they let them into the in-group. See the National Review article about poor whites when they wouldn't vote the way the establishment wanted.

If people were truly worried about birth rates maternity costs would be subsidized and mothers would receive a monthly stipend for every child she had.
03-15-2017 , 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoQuarter
What? A post is good and thoughtful that:

1) Promotes a world government
2) Promotes/condones/forgives illegally sneaking into a country
3) Promotes amnesty for those that have commited an illegal act
4) Promotes victimhood of members of a religion that a very large percentage of which are in favor of sharia law among other inhumane practices..

https://www.atheoryofus.net/islam-statistics/ << all graphs and stats are Pew Research and have been posted previously

5) Promotes global warming propoganda with no sources listed
6) Claims "global warming" is the cause of immigration with no sources listed

Wtf? Good at being disingenuous, full of propoganda and biased as all hell imho
What I meant was this was better than the barage of Twitter posts. I don't agree with his argument.
03-15-2017 , 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCowley
What level of skilled labor do you think an immigrant family (say 2 30-yr-old parents and 2.5 kids) needs to have to be a net positive to the current americans if allowed to come?
Any level of skilled labor can get a job in this market and pay taxes. They may not make enough starting out to pay income tax, but they will pay sales tax, etc. They will also contribute to the economy by buying products, etc. After a few years, they should be able to make enough to pay income taxes. They will be much more likely to want their kids to go to college and get a better life, etc. Don't think short-term. This country was built on long-term ideals.
03-15-2017 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
Did basketball originate in America or Canada? James Naismith invented it at the University of Kansas, but he was born in Canada. Do Canadians carry around a bubble of Canada around with them even inside the borders of Kansas?
No one does that here. Except Missourians.
03-15-2017 , 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
we need to deal with an aging population (baby boomers).
Eh no, we should be curbing population growth, not accelerating it. Especially with machines taking our jerbs. (But I'm in favor of letting immigrants in.)
03-15-2017 , 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter
Any level of skilled labor can get a job in this market and pay taxes. They may not make enough starting out to pay income tax, but they will pay sales tax, etc. They will also contribute to the economy by buying products, etc. After a few years, they should be able to make enough to pay income taxes. They will be much more likely to want their kids to go to college and get a better life, etc. Don't think short-term. This country was built on long-term ideals.
I'm counting their entire lifetime. You can count the kids lifetime as well. "Pays income tax" is a hideously wrong threshold to clear though.
03-15-2017 , 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heehaww
Eh no, we should be curbing population growth, not accelerating it. Especially with machines taking our jerbs. (But I'm in favor of letting immigrants in.)
freedoms tho
03-15-2017 , 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCowley
I'm counting their entire lifetime. You can count the kids lifetime as well. "Pays income tax" is a hideously wrong threshold to clear though.
It's not a threshold they should have to clear. It's just that they are more likely to pay taxes than a poor person who is paid to have more babies. That was the comparison i was asked to make. In other words, if the goal is to increase the population in order to help support the economy and an aging society, then bringing in new immigrants is preferable to paying poor people to have more babies.
03-15-2017 , 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sylar
freedoms tho
I wasn't even talking about restricting freedoms. Someone ITT was saying we should pay poor people to produce more babies so that they can help in the labor force. Meanwhile we're about to have millions of people losing their jobs to machines.

But I'm not automatically opposed to a restriction on freedom. What good are freedoms if you're shoulder to shoulder with everyone and barely have anything to eat?

      
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