You both are right. It originated in LA from El Salvadorian immigrants.

It originated in Los Angeles. He said it originated in El Salvador.

As I mentioned in the earlier post, Reagan's illegal wars in Central America are a cause. His funding of right wing death squads and the right wing banana republic side of the civil war in El Salvador and insurgency in Nicaragua created refugees, orphans, poverty and violence. But, it was when refugees from this environment came to LA where gang life was established and an association with the Mexican Mafia (that's where the 13 comes from and the Mexican Mafia grew out of our prison industrial complex and drug war) was formed. The result was MS-13.

That non conviction saved lives, as a Priest fan I would have become a suicide bomber myself.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

how do you stop bad citizen dudes who are already here? Same, with law enforcement. Being undocumented doesn't make bad dudes magically invisible.

On the other hand, if you are not addressing the problem of anyone living in poverty is more likely to turn to crime, regardless of their status. If we paid better attention to that, we'd have fewer bad dudes.

What's that supposed to mean? I just gave you the history of MS-13. Do you want me to explore the sinister forces that brought Reagan to power? It wasn't the peasants and indigenous people of Central America.

It was you at the ballot box, right? You're old enough to have some responsibility for that.

E.g. The travel ban. The countries singled out actually created few attacks on American soil.

You are right. We are screening refugees so it's not like we even get a random assortment of people. We actually pick people based on how well they'll adjust already. The language that vilifies immigrants by only pointing out their crimes is abhorrent. I am merely making the point that you can't just rest on your current understanding of the immigrant population and you have to continue studying how well they are integrating, and what problems they face, and whether there is any criminal causation effect (there isn't), and if there were, we could simply screen for some additional factors without resorting to deportations.

It had it's origins in El Salvador, just like I said.

Whether Reagan caused it, or I caused it because I may have voted for Reagan is irrelevant. (Lol at blaming me for MS-13)

P.S. I didn't vote for Reagan, by the way.

No, it had it's origins in Los Angeles.

How is that not clear? If a Salvadoran comes to America I get that you don't allow that they are American, but do you not even accept that they are actually in America? Do you think they carry around a tiny island of El Salvador wherever they go?

Did basketball originate in America or Canada? James Naismith invented it at the University of Kansas, but he was born in Canada. Do Canadians carry around a bubble of Canada around with them even inside the borders of Kansas?

Cognitive dissonance.

Climate Refugees: Global Warming Will Spur Migration
https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...pur-migration/

einbert,

what would jesus say? i want a long and real answer. no tweets. jk. we know jesus don't tweet.

seriously. you're a passionate, interesting person and i like to hear your perspective.

Debating Immigration Policy at a Populist Moment

David Frum and Conor Friedersdorf go back and forth discussing immigration policy focusing on the United States.

I've been very impressed with David Frum's work lately. I disagree with him on a number of issues, but he's balanced, articulate and very well informed.

David Frum The Progressive Argument for Reducing U.S. Immigration

Alright. I think we should be moving TOWARDS a global/open borders type situation. That doesn't mean we have to do that overnight. The first step could be shoring up actual real defenses against illegal immigration, steps that are actually practical rather than investing in a border wall.

The next step is a legal path to citizenship for the undocumented people that find themselves here. Maybe that means excluding anyone who has committed a felony, those people might be out of luck, but a lot of undocumented people should get some kind of bridge to citizenship. Take the DREAMER girl who was brought here from Argentina at 7. She doesn't have any idea of what it's like to live in Argentina, deporting her there now that she's in her 20's is cruel and unusual and doesn't really make any sense. Let people like that have some way to become complete citizens so they can be more productive in our society.

As an atheist, I find all religion to have its objectionable or disagreeable parts. However, I also think that all religions are based on good principles and most practicers of each religion actually believe in, for example, The Golden Rule. We got to stop looking at Muslim people with this kind of suspicion that we don't look at other people with. 99.999% of Muslims are not terrorists or anything close to it, and I don't have the numbers but most victims of extremist violence through the world are also Muslim. Many majority Muslim populations in different countries have to "show fealty" to the Taliban or ISIS or whatever, but that doesn't mean they actually support the organizations. They are under constant threat of violence if they speak out, and the Taliban often provides assistance to local communities to help them farm and survive. So that the locals feel pressured to support and be loyal to these groups.

Another big part of the picture that doesn't get brought up very much is global warming. The climate is changing rapidly and that is displacing people. In 20 years immigration will be a much bigger problem than it is now, unless we act now to reverse the effects of global warming. And that seems very unlikely under the Trump administration, so I'm definitely worried about future immigration conflicts being worse than current ones.

A big problem with this kind of view of the world is it's complicated and nuanced and it's much easier just to say "Muslims are scary!" and "Rule of law!" But the world is a complicated place.

Broadway,

Did you vote for Mondale?

something to consider in this environment. governments opened the borders and are actively suppressing the data to illustrate the consequences. discussions are being shut down in the form of calling people with concerns or criticism of the policies racist

4:47 -10:05

J. Peterson is the man could listen to that guy talk all day. I think everyone could benefit from his advice at 9.00 minutes where he tells people to actively try to listen and have dialog with people who have opposing views.

Pretty interesting where he lays the difference psychologically between the left and the right and more importantly how they both actually need each other to progress as a society. And again outlines just how important free speech and open dialog is.

This and stop letting more bad dudes who can more easily avoid being apprehended into the country.

"Suppressing the data" sounds like a conspiracy theory, so you need some evidence for that claim.

And of course it isn't true at all in the United States. Crime has consistently fallen over time even as we've increased the immigrnat population:

Foreign born population went from 7.9% to 12.9% from 1990 to 2010.

Violent crime fell by almost half during that time, from 731 incidents per 100,000 in 1990 to 404 per 100K in 2010.

How more definitive can you get? The increase in immigration has NOT led to an increase in crime. Period.

Of course, lots of things affect the rate violent crime, but immigration to the United States is not significant at all. That's why Trump has to repeatedly lie about the murder rate in order to gain support for his policies.

As for "shutting down" discussion--stick to the facts and you won't get called racist.

Even the raw numbers in that data make the case. We added 20,000,000 foreign-born people to the country and we now see ~600,000 fewer violent crimes per year.

Maybe we need MORE immigration.

We do, not necessarily because of crime but because we need to deal with an aging population (baby boomers).

No maybe about it we would be safer and they all have paid more taxes then our president. Its a win win.

About 99% of them have committed less sexual assaults than our President as well!

And a bunch of them fought with blood instead of dodging our wars like our fearless leader.