This thread is to discuss immigration policies in Western counties and their approaches to handling refugees.

It's contentious and sensitive issue so please make the effort to avoid offence to vulnerable groups. Sweeping claims about groups of people and the use of selected facts to portray them in a bad light are not going to be allowed.

Please report any posts that cause concern or bring them to my attention in the moderation thread.

The raw data is here, isn't it language neutral enough?

http://statistikbanken.dk/statbank5a/default.asp?w=2560

voedtaegt = rape , you can further select country of origin and year.

This data was compiled into the charts i posted.

damn, seems like I can't link to the actual page I was looking at, just goes to the main page..

Anyhow , you click on levevilkår -> kriminalitet -> domte personer -> Strafne 5 to get to the raw data.

Europa,

Sweden has had immigration from the same countries as Denmark, the only difference is that we have received greater volumes from those countries. I see no reason why statistics for Sweden would be remarkable different.

The Swedish government does not provide us with raw data like the Danish one does. The last study with this type of breakdown by country of origin was done in 1999, that is were I am getting the 5x over representation in rape convictions for ALL immigrants in Sweden. We have had recent debate and controversy in our public discourse about not releasing this data, many are very critical of this approach in Sweden.

Like obviously the Indian justice system is not up to par to the Swedish one. The most over represented nationalities of rape in Denmark also have very low or no statistics at all on rape in their home countries.

The fact that justice systems differ is pretty much irrelevant when studying the relative effect of immigration on crime.

I do appreciate that it's not what you want but this forum does have a PC bias. There's the PC thread started by TS if you want to discuss the pros and cons of this approach

Data is data but conclusions drawn from that data can't really be discussed without us being able to understand exactly what the data means. It's hard enough when we do understand the words.

Could you start by giving the raw data on the numbers of refugees, their demographics and how they are distributed within Sweden? It would be interesting to see how that compares to the rest of the population.

the_facts_about_asylum

From above link:

Refugee

“A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.”

The 1951 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees

Asylum Seeker:

A person who has left their country of origin and formally applied for asylum in another country but whose application has not yet been concluded.

Refused asylum seeker

A person whose asylum application has been unsuccessful and who has no other claim for protection awaiting a decision. Some refused asylum seekers voluntarily return home, others are forcibly returned and for some it is not safe or practical for them to return until conditions in their country change.

Economic migrant

Someone who has moved to another country to work. Refugees are not economic migrants.




http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social-...asylum-seeker/

From link:

Asylum seekers are people who move across borders in search of protection, but who may not fulfil the strict criteria laid down by the 1951 Convention. Asylum seeker describes someone who has applied for protection as a refugee and is awaiting the determination of his or her status. Refugee is the term used to describe a person who has already been granted protection. Asylum seekers can become refugees if the local immigration or refugee authority deems them as fitting the international definition of refugee.

The definition of asylum seeker may vary from country to country, depending on the laws of each country. However, in most countries, the terms asylum seeker/asylee and refugee differ only in regard to the place where an individual asks for protection. Whereas an asylum seeker asks for protection after arriving in the host country, a refugee asks for protection and is granted this protected status outside of the host country.

__________________________________

Link to EU and American information on asylum seekers:

understanding-migration-and-asylum-european-union

politicalasylumusa/refugees/

In reply to 13all from Muslim thread:

I'm assuming your numbers are correct. The question then, is: why are immigrants more likely to be convicted of rape? The alt-right and anti-Muslim posters have their answer, but it would be foolish to conclude they are correct based on these numbers.


Now you are getting into socio-economic factors. These include age, gender, education and income. Correcting for these accounts for about 20% of the over representation for ALL crimes according to BRÅ. Additional socio-economic factors can be used but they are controversial as such socio-economic factors can themselves have the same underlying cause as the crimes they are attempting control for. An example of such factors could be school results, substance abuse and social isolation. Anyhow depending on methodology and what factors are taken into account, nordic studies have controlled for around 20-50% of the over-representation depending on crime type. These numbers are from memory and from national economist Tino Sanandaji's book Massutmaningen.

Aofrantic posted an outlier study earlier which relied more heavily on these self reinforcing factors, like grades in school, and arrived at a much higher result of like 60-80% of the over-representation being due to socio-economic factors.


The first thing to notice is the variation from year to year. I'm supposed to believe that in 2011 Muslims were 11.5x as rapey, but in 2012 they cut their tendencies in half, only to spike again in 2014? That seems obviously wrong. The variance is much more likely to be because these are fairly rare events, and so random variation in the numbers is causing large fluctuations in the relative rates here.

Denmark is a small country, so I agree with this.

Since you didn't link to the actual study, I also wonder how these comparisons are made. Did they control for age? If immigrant populations skew younger, then that could account for some of the difference. What about income? Immigrants are obviously going to be less wealthy. What happens to the difference in rates when this is taken into account?

See above, I also linked the raw data in reply to Chezlaw. The charts I posted are of course only based on raw data.

And this data is for convictions, so wealth might matter there as well. Are immigrants acquitted at the same rate as native-born Danes? Charged? Amnesty International argues that rape is not taken seriously in Denmark:

Quote:
Furthermore, only one in five reported rapes results in a conviction. The vast majority of cases are closed by the police or the prosecution and never reach trial. Most cases are closed due to “the state of the evidence”. However, in almost half of these cases, the victim had suffered physical injuries. The failure to effectively prosecute the alleged perpetrators of rape would indicate that Denmark does not fully comply with its responsibilities to protect women from gender-based violence.
Perhaps Danish police are simply more likely to look the other way with respect to rape when the accused is a native-born Dane. I don't know if that's true, but I'd be surprised if more than half of immigrant rape cases were closed without prosecution.


I would like to think that the nordic police and justice systems are about as fair as you will get in the western world. Yes, conviction rates are not great and they have been getting worse in Sweden for all crimes, I believe that in Swedens case this is much due to lacking resources, our police force has not been expanded in parity with the growing needs of our country. In fact there is a lot of talk about a police crises in Sweden, even in the mainstream media.

Anyhow I haven't seen any evidence of systematic bias against immigrants in our police force and justice system. Sometimes the opposite has been demonstrably true, like in the covering up of mass sexual assaults.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/i...d-is-shameful/

Since there is mountains of data on this, especially regarding distribution within the country I will just link to the relevant source(in English)


https://www.migrationsverket.se/Engl...tatistics.html

asylum applications by year


country of origin, last one is 'stateless'


foreign born residents of Sweden, couldn't find a more recent graph, but I suspect a spike in the last few years.

A video that wins this thread all day every day... with all the graphs and data you need that point to exactly why these current waves of immigration in Europe and elsewhere are not sustainable and therefore BAD.

*Dont be scared to watch...video is graphs/data from the very begining to the very end..


<sniped>

I did watch a lot of that video. Couldn't make it to the end but it came across very clearly as from someone with a strong anti-immigration agenda rather than any sort of impartial presentation of facts.

Some of it a least wouldn't be allowed if it was posted here as text so it's not going to be allowed as video.

It's the remaining question of what all the information about 'scary' people has to do with all the actually 'not scary' people?

No graphs or youtubes even required for answers on this question.

Criminal narratives about outsiders is a classic too.

This thread has nothing to do with good or bad people, it has to do with immigrants and refugees and the affect they have on their host countries...GTFO with your libtard distraction/derail tactics

Make me.

Y'all the ones citing rape and crime in relationship with refugees and immigrants. Did you feel privileged to have no response? I say that information is weak and forms partial, incomplete narratives about refugees and immigrants, including with regard to their relationships with people in and out of host countries.

Sigh

Obv you didnt watch the video I posted because if you did , you would have seen that it also talks about second generations.

40% of Moroccans born in the netherlands between the ages of 12 and 24 were involved in criminal acts in 2015...40%


Move along, nothing to see here

Also, you are obviously edging toward the libtard racist argument which is, and always will be erroneous

You already started with the presupposition of criminality which is one presupposition racists do use,and you still don't account for the people who aren't included in the one's you have captured in a percentage. You can't name call them and me out of existence, so deal with the people.

So if immigration was from say Austria and yeilded the same stats, would that be racist?

Please stop

Why would you think and say that?

Obviously if you choose a narrative with a presupposition that is aligned with racist presuppositions, you got carry the weight of doing that.

Relax, I'm not calling or implying you or your people are criminal about anything at this point.

If you really want to persuade any non right wing nut jobs that Muslim immigration = crimewave, maybe don't try it with a video featuring the unmistakeable mug and hair of Geert Wilders, a Dutch far right politician found guilty recently of inciting "discrimination and hatred" against Moroccans living in the Netherlands, and convicted in another hate speech trial, because no one here who's aware of this is going to sit through that video.

Quote some of it instead to spare us that ordeal.

I didnt say crimewave

Its Stephan Molyneux dude..Jesus Mary & Joseph you kumbaya generation are annoying most times wtf...

Lol @ Stephan trolling the SJWs haha...I didnt even know thanks for that LOL

Geert Wilders on the splash screen.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus

lol hopeless.

the stats are:

- non-western immigrants in denmark, which mainly means refugees etc., are convicted of crimes 50% more often than people of danish origin (when you adjust for age). the descendent of non-western immigrants are convicted 150% more often than people of danish origin.

- sweden has a homicide rate of about half that of montana (which was the most boring sounding state i could think of).

if you think those are reasons to clamp down on the number of people that get to live in freedom in the western world then youre the one that's destroying lifes.

Did they only adjust for age for that 50% number? Anyhow those are stats for all crimes, the over representation is much higher for violent and sexual crimes which can not be explained away by socio-economic factors.

I will make a longer post later detailing how the swedish government and by extension media is spreading misinformation and how even respectable leftist media like Vox are buying the narrative without looking at the whole picture.

yes, those numbers are only age adjusted. there are also numbers adjusted for socioeconomic factors, but i dont always think theyre useful. it was also only men. the difference among women is smaller. table 5.7 in the PDF here http://www.dst.dk/Site/Dst/Udgivelse...4&sid=indv2016

it seems to hold fairly well over a broad ranges of crimes. youre exaggerating the difference with regards to violent crime.

anyway, much of the crime is just weed/drug related, which isnt really the fault of immigrants. it's our insane drug laws that create gangs and someday soon we'll probably get rid of them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/u...nts-crime.html

Your numbers check out, they are actually similar to Swedish numbers for all crimes, included among other crimes, economic crimes and certain traffic crimes, I find the stats for rape and violent crimes more alarming where some nationalities are way over-represented.

I didn't see any such numbers in the pdf you posted.

Also numbers of inmates by ethnicity are not released for our jail population, but the foreign born or first generation immigrants are estimated to be about 2/3 of our total prison population. Does that sound like an unreasonably high number to you?