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Old 03-22-2017, 12:59 AM   #3776
amoeba
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Re: !!! Gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos named LGBTQ Nation's 2016 Person of the Year

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
The Pay Gap is worse for women of color
http://www.aauw.org/research/the-sim...ender-pay-gap/
That is a very misleading title for what that chart shows.

Shouldn't the title read pay gap better for women of color?
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Old 03-22-2017, 02:31 AM   #3777
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Re: !!! Gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos named LGBTQ Nation's 2016 Person of the Year

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
Well here's a problem with you guys' analysis. What I've seen of actual statistics estimates the "unexplained gap" at 12 cents, not 6. That's a big difference. The most recent data I can find estimates the "unexplained gap" at 12 cents with an overall gap of 20 cents as of 2016. But that's still very difficult to divine since you cannot know exactly how much is due to discrimination and how much is due to other factors.

http://www.aauw.org/research/the-sim...ender-pay-gap/


Still, until you guys can produce a real citation for the 6% figure, i think we have to go with 12% as being the unexplained gap until you can produce a citation otherwise.
There is a cite in the paragraph above the one you highlighted albeit it is for people 1 year after graduation vs the 12% for 10 years after graduation.

So might as well split the difference and go with 9% or 10%.
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Old 03-22-2017, 10:33 AM   #3778
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Re: !!! Gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos named LGBTQ Nation's 2016 Person of the Year

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Well here's a problem with you guys' analysis. What I've seen of actual statistics estimates the "unexplained gap" at 12 cents, not 6. That's a big difference.
They are different stats, but this is a fair point. Different studies measuring different scenarios have differing conclusions on this number. I glossed over that before, and maybe I shouldn't have.

Last year, there was a pretty good (imo) NBER working paper that went into great detail on the existing research on the wage gap. If you're interested in looking through it, i've uploaded it here. It puts the range for the "unexplained" part of the gap at between 8-18% depending on the study (p. 48-49)
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Old 03-22-2017, 10:36 AM   #3779
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Re: !!! Gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos named LGBTQ Nation's 2016 Person of the Year

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Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
is the pay gap between women and men getting worse? if not, isn't the general question of people having to work harder to make less a much bigger problem for everyone? how does that get fixed?
Also from the NBER paper above, the gap declined significantly between 1980-1989 but has been fairly static since then. It's not getting significantly worse at the moment, but also not getting significantly better.
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Old 03-22-2017, 07:47 PM   #3780
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Re: !!! Gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos named LGBTQ Nation's 2016 Person of the Year

I admittedly know less about the 12% number but the later you go into a career, the harder it seems teasing out all possible factors would be.

The most obvious hurdle would be that people generally start families in that first 10 years and women obviously take more time away from work to do this than men do on average. I'm sure this is accounted for in some ways but avoiding selection bias seems like it might be relatively hard.

There are also factors from the initial condition that would compound naturally but may be hard to account for.

Say you have two equally qualified male workers. One works 40hrs per week, the other works 50. Who is more likely to be promoted?

Now we know that male workers work longer hours than female workers, shouldn't we expect more male workers to be promoted into higher wage positions on average just from that? (We should also expect there would be some set of women who potentially missed out on a promotion because of taking more time away from work for family reasons)

Or going back to the negotiating wage thing, in ten years you have more opportunities to ask for higher wages and so the disadvantage women have in this area gets compounded.

Last edited by TheMadcap; 03-22-2017 at 07:55 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 10:31 AM   #3781
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Re: !!! Gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos named LGBTQ Nation's 2016 Person of the Year

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Citation needed. No youtubez, please.
So juan has nothing again? It's just like a weak-jawed beta to run from a challenge.
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Old Yesterday, 10:59 AM   #3782
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Re: !!! Gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos named LGBTQ Nation's 2016 Person of the Year

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So juan has nothing again? It's just like a weak-jawed beta to run from a challenge.
He was referencing youtubez. Although it would've been one of the better youtubez because I'm pretty sure he's talking about a Norwegian documentary series in which a variant of his argument was made, although a lot more sensibly than Juan ever will and not without controversy.
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Old Yesterday, 11:37 AM   #3783
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Re: !!! Gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos named LGBTQ Nation's 2016 Person of the Year

I haven't watched all of the documentary yet but in case you are actually interested here are a few of the studies referenced:

http://link.springer.com/article/10....508-008-9380-7

http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com...g_etal_BJP.pdf
(The study is about autism but Cohen made the claim that they can predict a child's future interests using fetal testosterone levels)

And here is the documentary:


Last edited by TheMadcap; Yesterday at 12:00 PM. Reason: Linked wrong study
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Old Yesterday, 11:57 AM   #3784
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Re: !!! Gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos named LGBTQ Nation's 2016 Person of the Year

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I haven't looked into this in great detail, but I have seen this study discussed elsewhere, and I think there's at least one point worth making.

I think a lot of people read "sexual dimorphism" and think binary gender, by which I mean something like a very hard separation between biologically male and female persons. But even in this study there's an enormous amount of overlap, which is obvious from the standard deviations in table 2:



If you assume a normal distribution (the authors do; they use a t-test for example) the curves would look like this:



(note: I borrowed this graphic from The Society Pages)

Mostly, I think the "biology" vs "social construction" debate is a red herring. There are people who adhere ideologically to strict social constructionist accounts of gender -- probably in large part for political reasons -- and results like these certainly challenge that ideology. So fair enough as far as that goes. I don't think an absolute social constructionism is a tenable position, but it's also not a mainstream position in the social sciences.

However, I say it's a red herring because acknowledging that physiological differences exist doesn't actually tell you much about some of the sociologically interesting facets of the gender wage gap. Physiological difference may partially explain differences in occupational preference, which is one of the biggest components of the wage gap, but it won't explain why we value traditionally masculine occupations more than traditionally feminine ones. In other words, it may tell you something about occupational sorting but not why occupational sorting creates a gap in wages.

Nor does it explain why there is a fatherhood bonus and a motherhood penalty which don't reduce neatly to differences in time taken off work. Nor can physiological difference ground an account of why the wage gap declined so dramatically during the 1980s. All of these quite obviously involve sociological dynamics. One can acknowledge that biological difference exists and also embrace a political/ethical perspective which calls for cultural change. I think one should also be careful not to fall into overly simplistic essentialisms about biological determinism which aren't really justified by studies like this one, as per above. It's all rather complicated...
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Old Yesterday, 02:47 PM   #3785
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Re: !!! Gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos named LGBTQ Nation's 2016 Person of the Year

That's all really interesting.

I'd argue that biology v culture seems to start to matter once you need to look for solutions. For example, do you think we should use government resources to try to encourage women to enter STEM fields? Knowing whether or not women are naturally disinclined to want to enter these areas seems like something we should figure out before answering this question, right?

I can only guess about why this occupational sorting you mention leads to a gap in wages but isn't the first step to show that this is something different than what we would expect from normal market forces? If it turns out there is a legitimate reason for traditionally masculine jobs to pay more than traditionally feminine jobs (based on something like scalability differences in problem solving vs interpersonal careers), what then?

I certainly agree with you that it is all complicated and my contention is that part of this complexity makes it hard to even know what success looks like.
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