Finally doing this. Thanks to this post (slightly edited) from the Islam thread for the impetus.
YES values matter more. No we (the protesters that is) are absolutely not willing, for example, to throw Muslims under the bus to help get a trade deal with the USA - not even if it would be a great trade deal.

It's never been about the economy for me and I'm as strongly pro remain as they come. It's dominated by values - only if the values weren't a big issue would it be about the economy and trying to guess what will happen to it.

We face a stark choice now, the EU faces a stark choice now. We need to come together and stand up for what we really believe in together, or the reality is that the UK will almost certainly cosy up to trump. While I will still wish the EU best of luck, they have plenty of problems and will find themselves even more exposed.

Its incredibly frustrating when people keep arguing about the economy when that's not the reason people voted to leave or stayed at home.

We (the remainers) lost in part because we never made the value case for being in the EU. We never said why we wanted to be part of this club and why we support it's fundamental principles and core values. We hid away because the anti EU brigade has had the floor for decades while we sat complacently by. It may be too late but then again maybe it isn't and the stakes couldn't be much higher This thread is to discuss all things related

The Unite for Europe march is going to be on 25th March https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-protest-march

you dont need a trade deal any. you need a single market, especially in services


https://twitter.com/NIESRorg/status/824915005216870400

Good find, daca.

Just to spell it out to the Brexiters, those are the projected net changes in UK trade after taking into account projected increases in trade resulting from Free trade agreements with BRIICS and North America.

Let's talk about values.

1. I value democracy.

2. The British people voted to leave the EU.

3. The American people voted to elect Donald Trump as President.

4. Regardless of my views on each of these issues, that gives the governments of Britain and the USA mandates to work towards the fulfilling the promises that gave them those mandates.

5. Because I value democracy, I respect all of this.

----------------------

What you are saying is this:

1. I put my own values above the values of those people who voted for these things.

2. My values are more important than the value of democracy.

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That is what this matter looks like in terms of values.

lol democracy, the majority is never wrong except the times that they are wrong. I'm not sayin' I invented the piano neck-tie BUT

Chez, my old friend, so the Brexit vote and the election of Donald Trump is finally giving you an excuse to pry yourself off the pub stool and out into the streets with the plebs, placards and all. Will you be chanting slogans? What sign will you carry? Will you fortify yourself with some good ale pre-march and along the protest route? Take care. If things get rough do you know who to call?

I altered the wording in point 5. I think it important - you may not, and that's fine.

Voted 1 star

I guess votes don't matter anymore. If you lose just go out and protest. Oh wait! I guess voting does matter because your protest won't change a thing. It will cost tax payers a ton of money. It could cost people their lives.

Brilliant!

That's not what democracy is. It doesn't mean accepting political decisions at all. Everyone has the right to protests and to campaign for different decisions. It's never over - the future is always to be fought for.

Plus, although I would love it if we persuaded the country to change it's mind, the main focus of the protests is on decisions that will be taken in the future. No decisions have yet been taken on the deal with the EU and how we handle our relationship with america are not decided yet.

I'm not asking for special privileges or my vote mattering more than others - that's the only thing that would be me putting my values above others.

The first protest I carried an anti-capitalism placard for a little bit but very sheepishly and I was just holding it for a friend. The second protest I carried an excellent banner for a bit but I cant mention it because it made the internet in a way that could easily out me.

Some had banners like 'I'm really quite annoyed' which is close to perfect imo.

Searching the internet now for an excellent and unique banner carried by an alcoholic 50 something white male.

I can't find the picture recently of a guy in Sheffield with a banner reading "Muslims are welcome but Trump can **** REET off"

This gives me a better understanding of the value of protests. I wasn't really focusing on the future implications. I still question the sincerety of those marching. I have to believe many just like to go out and protest. I've seen many an interview were those asked why they were there could not give a good explanation. Sometimes people are paid to be there.

I think the optics of people rioting, looting, using foul language etc does a disservice to those whom are peacefully trying to bring about change. If you truly think you can make a difference, then more power to you!

No-one was paid to be there and the UK protests have been very civilised and peaceful. There was some choice language but the optics of a group of middle class ladies from young to old chanting 'trump is a ****' was rather good imo.

I posted this in another place with reference to John Berkow's excellent stand against trump speaking in our parliament.

I was referring more to the protests in the US.

We clearly have not been worked hard enough in the USA to get the protest out of us.

Stay frustrated. Perpetual sub-1.5% growth, interest rates under 1.0%, and a growing pension funds deficit tend to create all kinds of "values" excuses for why the masses revolt.

Yes, it's absolutely about the failing economy. "Values" conflicts are the symptom. Not the diagnosis.

Had a very depressing dinner with mostly brexiters - 8 vs 3 remainers.

Maybe I'm wrong but it confirmed my perception from the news and discussion programs that while most of 'my' side seem to be arguing against what the UK government is doing because the leavers didn't vote for the approach the UK government is taking, the leavers are absolutely ****ing delighted because it's exactly what they voted for. They're aren't going soft on brexit - totally the reverse.

I'm not sure we disagree on this. I agree that the economy is a big part of the underlying anger behind many brexiters, but as far as I can see, that anger has translated into 'feelings' that are so strong that people will support "taking back control" even if they think they might be worse off.

Brexit was about racism. This is obvious to any one with an IQ of above about 100. Talk to a Brexiteer for more than about a minute and it becomes obvious they can't provide any broader substantiation. They are universally economically illiterate from the bottom to the political elite.

The reason this is not openly acknowledged is that it is quite difficult for journalists and people who voted to remain to accept that more than half the country is full of stupid and/or nasty bigots. Even those who know this don't really want to have that conversation, it goes nowhere.

Yes, Brexit wouldn't have happened without the racism/etc but there's been a sizable opposition to Europe as a political project since the beginning. The failure to ever make the case for Europe (let alone win it) combined with the relatively recent immigration/refugee issues to win it for the brexiters. How did we allow the Sun, Mail etc to set the political agenda for decades and so neglect the EU institutions that we barely raised an eyebrow at people like Farage being elected to them?

Also racism/etc is not some fixed quantity within people. Gross dysfunction within the housing market and wealth inequality results in a rise in social tension and racist attitudes. Pressure on services such as the NHS has the same effect. It's all very well for us to point out it's a wholly irrational response but it would also irrational to ignore the fact that it's part of the inevitable response.

I voted remain but I think your elitist hollier than though attitude is pretty ignorant to be honest.

To write off the leave movement as racist little Englanders is pretty typical of some remain voters who fail to comprehend how some areas of the country have felt completely abandoned by mainstream politics and decided to kick back. Not to mention EU was used as a scapegoat by many politicians for years and then when the push came to the shove they were telling these people to vote stay.

I think the disdain and patronizing attitude towards the working class played a bigger part than racism to be honest.

In addition a lot of the left has long been anti-Europe (See Tony Benn etc) and it's not resentment or racism/etc. That true of a section of the right as well.

Another part of the reason we lost is that Corbyn comes from that section of the left and is only somewhat pro EU at best

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince idiots that UKIP represents working class interests.