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Old 04-26-2017, 04:02 PM   #151
superslug
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by batair View Post
Wonder what percentage of the "free speech" folk at burkley would like commie hippies put in jail for burning the flag.
Would be interesting to find out. I think asking them good questions like that would be more effective than battering them over the head with a bike lock.

The free speech side seemed open to dialogue whilst antifa did not though.
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:19 PM   #152
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by chezlaw View Post
So do people who do understand the value of free speech. We can chose not to exercise those bits that we don't think should be allowed.

Seriously, lets not assume that those who think there should be no restrictions on free speech (assuming that there are such people) are the ones who are correct about the value of free speech.
It was sloppy wording on my part and yeah I conflated two things. I think she was joking but even assuming that she wasn't, saying something as dumb as that doesn't strip her of her 1st amendment rights. That's all I was saying.

I also don't know what it means to say there should be no restrictions on free speech. For example, crimes committed using words isn't a form of protected speech obviously.
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:39 PM   #153
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Re: Free speech

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Are police just letting people walk around with weapons? The whole point of wanting a closed space for Coulter's speech was so people could be searched before entering the venue.

I don't know what the law says about just arresting people who cover their face. Seems like a stretch by itself.
im not a lawyer and these arent perfect comparisons but you cant walk in to a bank with your face covered for a valid reason. being charged with attempted robbery isnt a given but being removed and/or searched seems perfectly reasonable. driving within the speed limit and your lane is perfectly legal but im pretty sure you get pulled over at 3 am under suspicion for swerving within your lane. that doesn't mean you get charged with a DUI

the police aren't doing anything. making excuses for them to let this stuff happen or for the threat of violent protest to take priority over free speech is a big mistake
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:58 PM   #154
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Re: Free speech

A business can basically do whatever they want with regards to restricting certain items of clothing or enforcing a dress code. Most banks have signs saying you can't cover your fave and so when you do they can ask you to leave and if you don't they can get the cops involved.

(As an aside, does anyone know if there been any issues regarding women going into banks with full Islamic face veils? It just dawned on me that this could be challenged as a religious freedom thing. It seems to me to be an interesting case)

Anyway, this is a harder case in a public setting but as far as I understand the government can temporarily amend the rules using the "least restrictive means" in order to keep people safe. But I'm not a lawyer either. I could be missing a piece somewhere.

Last edited by TheMadcap; 04-26-2017 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:59 PM   #155
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Re: Free speech

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Journalists are not on the verge of being jailed because she said what she did and there are no flag burning laws about to be passed.
I don't know any of that consdring my president. I've got a president who wants to loosen libel laws to stifle the press and who advocates for removing the citisonship of poeople who burn the flag. It's important to counter those views which are often supported by Ann and the right. I'd say it's more important then ever.


Plus this has been a liberal bashing issue of late (see thread) and it's also important to point out free speech is not just attacked by the left. The are mostly new comers to this game.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:03 PM   #156
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by superslug View Post
Would be interesting to find out. I think asking them good questions like that would be more effective than battering them over the head with a bike lock.

The free speech side seemed open to dialogue whilst antifa did not though.
We don't see the "free speech" side the same.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:04 PM   #157
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Re: Free speech

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You support flag burning do ya?
I support peoples right to. You don't?
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:09 PM   #158
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by batair View Post
We don't see the "free speech" side the same.
Im basing my opinion of footage from journalists covering the event and trying to interview people. In the footage I saw those there for the free speech event were open to talking , those from antifa weren't.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:09 PM   #159
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Re: Free speech

I support people's right to burn the flag as form of speech.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:14 PM   #160
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by batair View Post
I don't know any of that consdring my president. I've got a president who wants to loosen libel laws to stifle the press and who advocates for removing the citisonship of poeople who burn the flag. It's important to counter those views which are often supported by Ann and the right. I'd say it's more important then ever.


Plus this has been a liberal bashing issue of late (see thread) and it's also important to point out free speech is not just attacked by the left. The are mostly new comers to this game.
If/when Trump does something egregious like that it will be challenged and overturned by the Supreme Court. There needs to be some faith in the system. It's pretty good.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:25 PM   #161
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by TheMadcap View Post
If/when Trump does something egregious like that it will be challenged and overturned by the Supreme Court. There needs to be some faith in the system. It's pretty good.
His and the rights attacks on free speech should be countered before he/does something.


As far as faith in the system. I've got a little but Its not like artist have not been charged with crimes in the recent past. Sorry but my faith in the system is not as high.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:35 PM   #162
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
@juan: I only lightly skimmed your massive text wall, but as you can see from reading my posts, I do not favor silencing Coulter violently or otherwise. I called her a white Christian supremacist because those are the views she holds.





There are many more such quotes.

I can see you in my mind's eye already preparing a text wall rebuttal. That's fine if you want to spend the time. But unless the rebuttal is that she renounced these and her other equally abhorrent sentiments, you will not change my mind (and tbh I probably won't bother reading anyway).

And lest I give the impression that only liberals view Coulter as a white supremacist:



Seems like he would know.
given your posting habits in 7.0 its seems you vastly over estimate the importance or validity of your posts. the comments i have seen seem like petty snipes that lack substance. i guess that makes sense if you're under the impression people should care what you think or that your empty snipes carry any more weight than others. maybe its also a symptom of being in a group think bubble

i was highlighting the last part of your post to make a point. the very first sentence of my posts says "this highlights the issue". my point is that using labels like white christian supremacy to justify shutting her speech down instead of debating specific points is a real problem. these labels carry weight and people use them as justifications for violence. that maybe your take on coulter but that doesn't make it true or valid. people can listen to her and decide for themselves. it wasn't a giant argument against your post, as the first sentence indicates. i dont care if you read any of my posts or respond to them. i haven't seen you articulate an interesting argument or point and you're quite open about the fact that you don't even read the posts you are responding to
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:42 PM   #163
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Re: Free speech

Batair, you can't charge someone for a crime they haven't committed. The only free speech violations so far have come from the rioters at Berkeley.

What Trump has said about the media is irresponsible, disturbing and, like everything else he says, poorly considered gibberish. But he hasn't passed any laws yet and just look at what has happened the times he tried doing anything. He fails. My faith in the system reached a low point after the election but since then it's gone back up a lot.

(I will admit I tend to be overly optimistic about everything though)
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:00 PM   #164
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Re: Free speech

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Batair, you can't charge someone for a crime they haven't committed. The only free speech violations so far have come from the rioters at Berkeley
There have been plenty of artists charged in my lifetime for exercising their free speech rights.


Quote:
What Trump has said about the media is irresponsible, disturbing and, like everything else he says, poorly considered gibberish. But he hasn't passed any laws yet and just look at what has happened the times he tried doing anything. He fails. My faith in the system reached a low point after the election but since then it's gone back up a lot.

(I will admit I tend to be overly optimistic about everything though)
Still think his and others on the right should be countered. You don't think it should be in this thread. Fine I disagree.
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:23 PM   #165
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by batair View Post
There have been plenty of artists charged in my lifetime for exercising their free speech rights.



Still think his and others on the right should be countered. You don't think it should be in this thread. Fine I disagree.
I just don't think the right response to this free speech violation should be to say that Ann Coulter/Trump have made comments that could lead to other free speech violations. Or to say that the right have been ok with free speech violations in the past when it was convenient for them.
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:30 PM   #166
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Re: Free speech

It was not a counter to her being stoped from speaking. Again.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:18 PM   #167
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by pokerodox View Post
I support people's right to burn the flag as form of speech.
How is burning a flag a form of free speech? This is stupid. These people need to be charged with treason....simple.

Who Came up with the idea you can burn the American flag?

These sumbags better not do it in front of me.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:18 PM   #168
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Re: Free speech

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I support peoples right to. You don't?
You enjoy watching people burn the flag?
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:19 PM   #169
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Re: Free speech

This is getting downright schizophrenic at this point.


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Originally Posted by superslug View Post
No one is saying that speakers shouldn't be criticized. No one has come close to saying that. Stifling someone elses free speech isnt exercising your own right to free speech.

Set up a counter speech around the same time , protest peacefully outside it or even better ask them some difficult questions during the q and a , shouldn't be so hard given how ****e some of her views are.

Dont violently attack people attending the speech or stop them from speaking in the first place. It makes you look childish and your arguments look weak.

This issue is bigger than Coulter and Berkely though and There is a general trend on the authoritarian left right now to try and stifle free speech and it needs to end. Im glad people like Sanders are speaking up and are on the right side of this issue , maybe it will drill some sense into some people and make them realize that just because you are for free speech does not make you a Nazi , white supremacist or a bigot
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:26 PM   #170
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
How is burning a flag a form of free speech? This is stupid. These people need to be charged with treason....simple.

Who Came up with the idea you can burn the American flag?

These sumbags better not do it in front of me.
It's a statement - basically of hatred for America, or is it super nuanced ("I just don't like how much you love America, I want to make it better by burning it in effigy" - whatever). I disagree with the sentiment, but I believe in their right to "say" it.

It's not treason because it doesn't actually harm America. Does it increase our enemies' military power, give them a national secret?
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:28 PM   #171
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by batair View Post
I support peoples right to. You don't?
I think there comes a time when rights need to be taken away. If you can't behave like a polished human then you lose your rights.

We need to shut these protests down before they get started. Agitators need to be dealt with harshly.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:29 PM   #172
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
You enjoy watching people burn the flag?
Do want to put people in jail for it?
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:38 PM   #173
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by batair View Post
It was not a counter to her being stoped from speaking. Again.
You were pointing out the hypocrisy of the right, correct? Why else would you specifically look for Ann Coulter saying things that go against the principles of the first amendment?

Fair enough. Republicans are hypocrites. But if your concern is actually free speech, what is happening at Berkeley just is the bigger deal right now. I don't like what Trump or Coulter said but they are just words at this point.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:40 PM   #174
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Re: Free speech

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
How is burning a flag a form of free speech? This is stupid. These people need to be charged with treason....simple.

Who Came up with the idea you can burn the American flag?

These sumbags better not do it in front of me.
Political dissent is the most important speech to protect for reasons I'd image are self evident. It is our one real protection from having the government use the powers we give them back against us. (A few thousand people with AR15s won't cut it)

Flag burning is just a crude/uninspired form of that.

Last edited by TheMadcap; 04-26-2017 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:47 PM   #175
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Re: Free speech

I'm not sure I'll ever get over how, in this postMAGA universe, the actual Nazis are never the Nazis in the Nazi analogies.


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Originally Posted by Gustafson26 View Post
Quoted from Dan Mogulof going back to the Milo episode there.

'His (Milo Yiannopoulos) speech had to be canceled after the university was, in the words of spokesman Dan Mogulof, “invaded by more than 100 individuals clad in ninja-like uniforms who were armed and engaged in paramilitary tactics.” They threw objects, set fires and left about $100,000 in damage in their wake. The area has seen other recent violent political clashes as well.'

Is the left blind to the fact that this is exactly what happened in 1930s Germany to shut down their opposition? Send in some brown shirted thugs to break up the other political rallies. I know that present day liberals say it's okay for them because stopping conservatives is a just cause. That's exactly what the Nazis said. Look how that turned out...
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