Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics version 7.0 more politics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-21-2017, 07:46 PM   #1
pokerodox
The Situation
 
pokerodox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: can never leave
Posts: 3,756
Free speech

In which we discuss free speech.

There is no such thing as hate speech, in and of itself. Sure, fighting words could be bad, but speech regarding hateful ideas should be allowed. Davidson, at the Federalist, explains the difference:

"But in fact, there is no 'hate speech' exception to the First Amendment. The answer to the question, 'Where does free speech stop and hate speech begin?' is this: nowhere. For the purposes of the First Amendment, there is no difference between free speech and hate speech. Ideas and opinions that progressive students and professors find offensive or “hateful” are just as protected by the Bill of Rights as anti-Trump slogans chanted at a campus protest."
http://thefederalist.com/2017/04/20/...g-hate-speech/

It is a shame that people stop speech with violence. That makes them fascists. Berkeley cancelling Ann Coulter's speech is a disgraceful violation of the First Amendment. Free speech is what keeps us free.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.781e564c4611

Edit to add a review of some of the issues related to "hate speech."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8d27cbafa071

Last edited by pokerodox; 04-21-2017 at 07:53 PM.
pokerodox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 08:26 PM   #2
AppleCrumble
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 114
Re: Free speech

It is, quite straightforwardly, the cornerstone of civilisation, the right upon which other rights are built, and frankly the thing most worth fighting for.

I'm totally comfortable in taking an absolutist approach to free speech as I think, fortunately, most people are in the West.

Always needs defending though, and that naturally involves defending unpopular views.

Some people obviously try and asset that defence of someone's right to free speech constitutes an endorsement of what they're saying, but meh, most people see through that as a rhetorical tactic.
AppleCrumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 08:32 PM   #3
Noodle Wazlib
just about tolerable
 
Noodle Wazlib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Drowning in robot chocolate
Posts: 9,194
Re: Free speech

Quote:
It is a shame that people stop speech with violence. That makes them fascists.
So you don't know what words mean. Fair enough.
Noodle Wazlib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 08:37 PM   #4
superslug
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 616
Re: Free speech

I can see this thread going well.

Pretty much agree with apple though.
superslug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 08:43 PM   #5
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,938
Re: Free speech

Quote:
That makes them fascists. Berkeley cancelling Ann Coulter's speech is a disgraceful violation of the First Amendment. Free speech is what keeps us free.
Why does it always start with ridiculous notions like this? Berkley isn't under any obligation to host an Ann Coulter speech any more than it's obligated to host a talk from me (that's an open offer if anyone there is reading, I'll talk about anything in exchange for beer and a room). It's not a free speech issue. It's an Ann Coulter is a ****ing waste of DNA and some people might get uppity about it issue.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 11:23 PM   #6
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,616
Re: Free speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
Why does it always start with ridiculous notions like this? Berkley isn't under any obligation to host an Ann Coulter speech any more than it's obligated to host a talk from me (that's an open offer if anyone there is reading, I'll talk about anything in exchange for beer and a room). It's not a free speech issue. It's an Ann Coulter is a ****ing waste of DNA and some people might get uppity about it issue.
You ever here of a thing called a contract fella?

plus Ann Coulter is hot!
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 12:04 AM   #7
AllTheCheese
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AllTheCheese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Sad life; won't change
Posts: 9,059
Re: Free speech

You can't even say "Merry Christmas" any more.
AllTheCheese is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 11:43 AM   #8
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,616
Re: Free speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
You can't even say "Merry Christmas" any more.
You can now that Trump is President.
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 02:07 PM   #9
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Station keeping
Posts: 9,457
Re: Free speech



Quote:
... I can't believe you have to remind liberals of this... It’s a shame. Liberals are creating a fantasy land on college campuses that does not exist in the real world.
Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 02:10 PM   #10
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 69.20.56.132
Posts: 40,803
Re: Free speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
You ever here of a thing called a contract fella?

plus Ann Coulter is hot!
I guess I will start taking it easier on you. You have to be at least 70 to think Ann Coulter is hot.
microbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 02:12 PM   #11
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 69.20.56.132
Posts: 40,803
Re: Free speech

The issue is fuzzy for the University. People have every right to protest her though.
microbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 03:14 PM   #12
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,938
Re: Free speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
You ever here of a thing called a contract fella?

plus Ann Coulter is hot!
Contracts aren't a first amendment issue.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 03:22 PM   #13
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,938
Re: Free speech

I thought Maher was meant to be a voice of reason on US TV but whenever I see clips he's talking total ****.

This is why we never get to a point of nuance on these issues, because we've got to hear bull**** about how if you don't get to talk at a university then that's a violation of your rights. It isn't. And then we have to go through this bull**** about how "in the real world" everyone gets to say what they want. They don't.

If you work as a TV presenter and it turns out you make lewd phone calls to your colleagues and someone finds out about it, turns out you really can be fired just for what you say.

Free speech is about government sanction. It is not about codes of conduct for institutions.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 03:59 PM   #14
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Station keeping
Posts: 9,457
Re: Free speech

1) UC Berkeley is a government run entity.

2) The grounds are public owned land open to the public.

3) There is precedent for public speaking on the grounds.

4) that there might be violent protests has not previously been sufficient justification to bar speakers.

5) Berkeley, lately, has shown a practice of attempting to bar certain political speech while approving others.


~~~~~~

Even if "free speech" concerns are not the driver of the conversation, the cowardly actions of Berkeley trying to limit political speakers, who are invited by student groups, should be cause enough to find the situation revolting.

What's worse, it appears that the University is condoning the violent protests.
Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 04:21 PM   #15
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,938
Re: Free speech

Universities also ban certain kinds of physics speech while approving others. It's kind of what good universities do.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 04:25 PM   #16
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,938
Re: Free speech

I'll add that being a government run entity also doesn't entail allowing anyone to say whatever they want whenever they want.

Government employees can kindly tell the President that he's an orange-faced cretin and expect to be unemployed shortly after and it's still not a first amendment issue.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 04:48 PM   #17
jalfrezi
Pooh-Bah
 
jalfrezi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: long gone, long long gone
Posts: 5,173
Re: Free speech

The US protects the rights of people to incite hatred in others and removes the rights of some people to live (and therefore to express their views); Europe does the opposite.

I know which I prefer.
jalfrezi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 05:05 PM   #18
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Station keeping
Posts: 9,457
Re: Free speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
Universities also ban certain kinds of physics speech while approving others. It's kind of what good universities do.

Except that then UC Berkeley reverses itself in embarrassment when pressure is brought.

If your statement was correct, then Berkeley would have stood up on its hind legs and held it's ground.
Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 05:07 PM   #19
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Station keeping
Posts: 9,457
Re: Free speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalfrezi View Post
The US protects the rights of people to incite hatred in others and removes the rights of some people to live (and therefore to express their views); Europe does the opposite.

I know which I prefer.
Explain.
Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 05:08 PM   #20
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,938
Re: Free speech

Okay. And maybe that makes Berkeley sucky. It's still not a first amendment issue.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 05:14 PM   #21
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Station keeping
Posts: 9,457
Re: Free speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
I'll add that being a government run entity also doesn't entail allowing anyone to say whatever they want whenever they want.

Government employees can kindly tell the President that he's an orange-faced cretin and expect to be unemployed shortly after and it's still not a first amendment issue.
1) when student group invites a political speaker the University is obligated to permit the speech.

If the University bans the speech, then the political rights of the speaker and the students are infringed.

This is why it's a 1st amendment issue.

Again, the risk of violent protests has never been satisfactorily grounds to ban a political speech.

2) Has there been any government employees who have been fired for hating the president? Provide evidence please.

3) Lol at "banning some physics speech". Are you for real?
Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 05:18 PM   #22
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,938
Re: Free speech

Quote:
3) Lol at "banning some physics speech". Are you for real?
Coulter is the perpetual motion idiot of politics. So yeah, super serial.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 05:24 PM   #23
5ive
Pooh-Bah
 
5ive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Harvard, in a place like Africa
Posts: 5,851
Re: Free speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
Universities also ban certain kinds of physics speech while approving others. It's kind of what good universities do.
If Time Cube Guy gets deplatformed and disinvited there will be hell to pay.
5ive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 05:27 PM   #24
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,938
Re: Free speech

My favourite Time Cube moment was when they told him a cube has six sides and he said "You call your floor and ceiling a side? That's stupid".
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 05:34 PM   #25
5ive
Pooh-Bah
 
5ive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Harvard, in a place like Africa
Posts: 5,851
Re: Free speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
My favourite Time Cube moment was when they told him a cube has six sides and he said "You call your floor and ceiling a side? That's stupid".
Oh snap, I never actually watched his debates, I prejudged them as being exceedingly cruel to a clearly unwell man.

But the website is incredible and glorious.
5ive is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online