FoldN literally did say he thought the Jews exaggerated the number of victims of the Holocaust to build political support for Israel, I'm not sure why he's making jokes about that **** now, but me calling him a Holocaust denier isn't silly kids making stuff up to be mean, it's just a ****ing fact.

There are some gems in here if you dig through it, tho.

"I'm not a white suptemacist, I think the genetically tricksy Jews are way more crafty than white people!"

Eventually, I expect most supporters of the toxic mindset that has shattered the left will see through the lies they are being fed. Case and point, Fly won't back up his lies with a link, because anyone sane who reads the exchange would see I was arguing for the right of people to question the Holocaust, not denying it. And any honest reading of that Pinker article completely dismantles Trolly's smear as well.

During the President of the United States' relentless campaign against the press it's obscene to whine about protesting college kids being an attack on free speech.

Can someone provide a link to FoldnDark's alleged Holocaust denial post?

This allegation is coming from Fly, right?

Prepare to be underwhelmed...

Not sure if we should be linking to hate sites.


To cut this off at the pass, FoldN didn't explicitly deny the Holocaust ever happened, but he was really intrigued by the idea that the body count was exaggerated to gin up support for Israel. The term "Holocaust denial" is usually used as a blanket term that encompasses the idea that the Holocaust was greatly exaggerated and other crackpot ideas.

The notions that he was just arguing for free speech is of course ludicrous.

That's not what Pinker was saying, but as he acknowledges in the article the propagation of the idea that Jews are smart is part of antisemitic fearmongering and it's also true that white supremacists like to say they believe Jews (and Asians) are smart because they think it makes them sound less racist when they say blacks are dumb.

It's been a long time, but as I recall I liked The Better Angels of Our Nature and The Blank Slate quite a bit. It's fairly easy to see how liberal humanists would be wary of discussions about innate genetic predispositions and why white supremacists would gravitate towards those theories. As I said, it's been a while, so I don't really have any particular loyalty/fondness for Pinker personally, but it's a shame if he's unwise enough to be allow himself to become a hero in racist propaganda.

Pinker is smart enough to couch his article in a "just asking questions / interesting theory" sort of way. It's obviously not a great look.

I'm a bit confused.

Did Fold'n not make the claim in a post on this site? If he it is a non-deleted post on this site I don't see why we shouldn't link to it?

To be fair I haven't read his recent long boring manifestos on not deplatforming Milo Yabawhatever or something so if it is contained in there then it's my fault for not understanding.

I only read Fly's post and assumed he was referring to some well known post from the distant past.

The conversation being referenced starts here, I believe.

Thank you. I will take a look.

I believe it is from the discussion taking place around and including this post:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/21...t#post44736543

Whether or not you consider it holocaust denial or being soft on holocaust denial I think depends on how much you allow for honest ignorance vs. willful ignorance vs. outright antisemitism. It seems weird to me that an adult in the US wouldn't have the general understanding that the holocaust is one of the most heavily researched events in history and that precision in the count is an important element. It's about as weird as wondering if the scientists haven't really measured the CO2 levels very carefully and global warming is overblown. But, I don't know that my perceptions aren't a little off and it might be plausible for someone to be genuinely indifferent and ignorant enough to have missed that.

I didn't go through the whole thread, but it looks like Foldn clings to the skepticism about the holocaust body count a bit.

Also, is it fair to speculate about what is behind the impulse to question the number of people killed?

I was being facetious. Don't really have time to track down the link.

I read it. Meh, I dunno. I can certainly see reading that post as Holocaust denial but I also think it fits in relatively well with Foldn's general "everyone deserves a platform no matter how stupid or horrible their ideas are" shtick.

Actually, the two feed off each other, and one transgression justifies the other to each side. You're blind if you think it's just a few students who are doing this on the "progressive" left. The best thing to do is walk the walk, and talk the talk, so that aholes like Trump cannot justify their actions by pointing at yours. This is why responsible leaders like Obama and Sanders condemn the urge to shut down speech of those who oppose them.

All your worries are true, but you give the white supremacists too much power. In doing so, you stifle free inquiry and scientific progress, which is what Pinker argues in that article. He also believes the benefits of supporting free inquiry instead of letting the bad actors influence what can be studied outweigh whatever harm that comes of it. I'm not going to repeat every argument he makes, because you can just read the article, but he makes a very good case.

I don't think most of you realize how much harm your attempts to stifle stupid and horrible ideas creates. I think Hitchens sums up my views pretty well here:

What about the fact that people protesting on college campuses can't stop the speaker from giving a speech LITERALLY ANYWHERE ELSE?

I'm posting at work and therefore there is no chance of me watching YouTube videos but I don't know what you are talking about "my attempts". Where have I ever attempted any such thing?

Like, my official position on college student protests is "who gives a ****?"

Ponied, though the discussion started about 100 posts earlier with swissmiss.

Oh okay, I need to go back a bit further then, thanks.

What's important is that I annihilated your pony, imo. Accuracy? Meh.