Just a warning for anyone who plays sngs and is considering playing on WPN. 4-5 weeks ago I brought to WPNs attention about two colluding accounts cyl8erloser and imahustlababy on their network. Security did an investigation and locked those accounts. Since then I have been trying to get refunds for only 3 micro buyin games just to see what WPN would do. After getting the run around for weeks, WPN support just told me that they are under no obligation to give refunds back to the players. If that is not bad enough, when asked what happened to the funds in the locked accounts support told me that they can not release that information. So as far as I can tell WPN has kept the funds from the locked accounts which of course came from the players who were cheated against. To me this is theft. So be warned, if you play on WPN and are a victim of cheating you will not get your funds back.

At least they now have an incentive to find and punish cheaters. Other sites simply ignore it and let the rake flow in. Maybe a 50/50 split would be best to get them to do their jobs and get you some money back after being cheated (I am being facetious as the player cheated should get all the money and sites should work to identify cheaters/bot, but this is internet poker ...)

Is it possible that the site was not able to prove collusion 100% occurred so just banned (removed) the accounts from their site and cashed the players out, citing their site terms about management decision to remove accounts from the network?

Also this thread should prolly be moved back to main IP

Just to be clear WPN had emailed me and told me straight out that the accounts were banned because of collusion. Also if you happen to read the DoN collusion thread you will find another poster posted an email from Betcoin that they had banned two other accounts for collusion.

I agree this thread should be moved back to the main internet forum.

ah, lol well that changes things! If you can edit your OP to include the info that u received an email from WPN confirming collusion

yea obv funds that remain in the account should be redistributed to affected players

also nice find

I only saw your thread due to it being on mainpage . Will read this one now though

I think the most obvious sign that WPN is keeping the funds is the week the that the cyal8erloser and imahustlababy accounts were banned they actually cashed in Sit and Crush. Those accounts should have been removed from the leaderboard and everyone below them bumped up to spots. I know this didn't happen because I finished just below those accounts and got paid actually what my spot says I should have IF they were honest players. This also means two players didn't cash when they should have so where did those funds go?

How do you have any idea how much if any money was confiscated? Maybe the offenders felt like they were going to get caught and had requested a withdraw shortly before getting banned. Maybe as pmarr said, they just banned them for suspected collusion and couldnt confiscate the funds. When you label your thread as you did and then give 0 proof that they actually stole money, its hard to believe you.

Just keep reading. And read the DoN collusion thread, it has more evidence.

CastleFrank is trying to get money just on the basis that he played on tables where colluders were also playing. He hasn't said anything about actually losing money to the colluders. He has simply sent the site the ID numbers of the games he played and is sitting back waiting for his pay day.

I think that he intends to keep posting his accusations and demands in a number of threads until the network gives him money for no other reason than just being a nuisance. He reminds me of insurance scammers who do the same thing.

No network has ever payed players just on the basis of simply playing on tables where colluders were sitting. No network could possibly afford to do that.

jesus. how much does WPN pay you? kidding(sort of). I agree payments for a situation like this are very hard to figure out. if he played with these players(both in same sng) and lost money even 1 game I think in theory he deserves refund. Now for WPN to look through every game they ever played and refund any and all losses seems a task too tiresome or annoying to complete. Not to mention way too expensive. I think for people who actively sought out these guys and helped uncover this ring some sort of payment is in order. these guys went on playing for a while after concerns were raised. some sort of bonus, even like a complimentary entry to a larger tourney. something to say "hey we were sleeping at the wheel for a bit on these guys. thank you for doing all the leg work(and basically our job) for us. here is a ticket to ______. we know this won't make up for what happened but we hope you accept it as a gesture of good faith and we resolve to be more diligent and alert to these types of issues in the future.

So name a network that has ever done that.

I am unfamiliar with how these issues are normally resolved. I do not claim to know how they are. but in my post I explain what I believe is a DECENT thing to do.

also, please name me a network that allows colluders to go on playing for months despite players reaching out with their concerns numerous times?

let me rephrase that. please name me a reputable network.

ftp used to refund me all the time, i was primarily a sng player. i dont know exactly what santa is getting at. are u simply implying that no site has ever given refunds due to opponent's breaking TOS?

When it comes to DONs a network should refund players accordingly with confiscated funds and by that I mean how many games you played versus the colluders where you didn't cash.

If you crushed these guys for instance like I did versus Cyal8erloser/GoldenEagles/Acaibowl then you probably shouldn't expect a refund which I don't, however, it still irritates me that they were allowed to play as long as they did.

With SNC that brings a different kind of dynamic where the colluders might have got added money which isn't fair to anyone participating in any sngs across the board. Sure they paid rake to earn the points to get the money but they were cheating in the process.

For the network to just outright keep all the funds they confiscate that isn't fair but how they get redistributed to players if/when they do some people still won't be happy which is just sadly how life goes sometimes.

I agree with the damned if they do damned if they don't. it is probably better for them to just hold the funds bc if people hear about refunds they will come out of the woodwork and it will create a mess. customer support at WPN isn't horrible but it has in no way proven while I have played there, that they are capable of handling an audit of this magnitude to refund players correctly. it's just not a feasible thing imo. that is why I said offering tourney entries or bonuses of some kind to people affected allows them to compensate with less man hours and money. People won't be Happy but they may be able to swallow it. To flat out sweep this under the rug is a horrible move by them.

they might have avoided confiscating the funds as most if not all the info was submitted by players and it was all circumstantial evidence. obv they were cheating but wpn might have decided it was less of a hassle not to confiscate the funds than to have to spend time doing the right thing.

I could go along with this line of thinking except there is one problem. The last S@C the two accounts cashed in were locked 4 or 5 days before the week ended. And I know the players below were not bumped up because I was one of them. This mean WPN had the funds when the accounts were closed so what happened to them?

LOL at the first 2 sentencse dude is amazing. Doesn't matter what the thread with santacruz. The couple of threads about collusion I saw had customer service unable or unwilling to even explain how funds are distributed when colluders are caught unless something was stated that I missed.

No, that's not true.

Yes I did see that you had only sent 3 IDs. You've said that you sent 3 games to them as a test. You haven't made any claims that you actually lost money in those games because of collusion.

And yes I saw that you only sent games that you lost. Is the site supposed to feel fortunate that you are not also asking for reimbusement for games that you won?

If the site were to pass the test and pay you for the 3 games that you are testing them with then I'm sure many more games would be submitted by you for even more cash. And I'm sure that you would post your success and encourage other players to get their piece of the pie. That simply isn't how these things work, ever.

The tone of your posts tells us a lot about you.


Reimbursements are made with confiscated funds. They are paid out in a triage type of way. The players who are most blatantly colluded against are given full reimbursements whereas the other players are given nada. No one ever gets something like a $1.27 reimbursement for a $10 DON. Doing that would obviously cause big problems.

When the Chinese players were playing on PokerStars, I was reimbursed for one of the games that I had played against them. I know exactly which game that was. It was absurdly blatant collusion. I wasn't reimbursed for any of the many other games that I had played with them at my table.

The posters in this subforum made things much more difficult by giving the colluders a heads-up in these forums. And if the colluders didn't read these forums the posters made sure that they knew about it by telling them in the chat box that they were being watched for collusion. I have little doubt that doing that made things very difficult for the site to gather incriminating stats against them.

SantaCruz just answer the question, what do you think happened to the confiscated funds? And no I will not ask for refunds on the sngs I cashed and yes I do hope others ask (and recieve) exactly what they are owed and that is funds they were cheated out of. You want to know the total for the refunds I want? $4.50 thats it. I am hardly doing this for the money. I want WPN to do the right thing here. There are many more who were cheated out of much more than me so if by making a little noise and someone else can get some justice then I will have good some good in the world. Good day.

I would be worried about the fact that WPN has replied to the guy suggesting a software change but not this thread. It's pretty clear they just don't give a **** by their lack of replies.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...50&postcount=2

You've based this entire thread on confiscated funds and you have yet to tell us how you know that there were any confiscated funds.

Just a tip here take it for whatever you all want.

SantaCruz views and stance of collusion is widely known in this forum section. Arguing with him isn't going to get you anywhere (believe me I tried) so my advice is to practice avoidance when it comes to his posts since nothing constructive will ever come out of it.

BeerBottlez has got to be one of my favorite posters here.

Anyways, it's a step enough that WPN has taken initiative and has actually started BANNING colluders. Maybe refunds to victims of these games will be a future implement, but time will tell.

OP, you do realize that even if they did confiscate funds, which nobody knows, and they do issue refunds, that you arent going to get full refunds for games played. What you are going to get is a pro rated amount based on how much money they took, how many games they are refunding for, and your buy ins compared to all of the games in question.

And as I stated earlier, you still dont know if they actually confiscated any funds, so your accusations are a little premature at best