The reasons why Bovada is killing WPN is

1. The beast killed the cash games for a big part of 2013
2. Re entry causes weaker players to loss quick and winning players end up paying more rake because of the process.
3. Bovada is advertised significantly more
4. They have been big for a much longer time.

WPN has at least addressed problem one and from what I've noticed the cash games are much better now than last year.

The MTT structures are killing their tournament volume. All of the people I play with refuse to play those 15 min level, 5k starting stack, re-entry tournaments. It's just a bit too excessive imo. Make some 3k starting stack, 10-12 min level trnys. Add more omaha and hilo MTTs. I know several people that will come back to WPN and play those, they just absolutely refuse to play the 5k stack 15 min level tournaments.

Acrs lobby is awful

If you changed the title to "Why is Bodog crushing ACR?" It kinda answers itself. I didnt know that Bodog was Bovada but ya its been around for a long time and has a big player base. Thats why.


I just heard of ACR like 2 years ago or so...

More people trust bovada too. You can call them on the phone and there customer service is really good. They advertise and actually get recreational players on the site. Also their tournaments are far better and when a site has good tourneys - it attracts droolers.

ACR / BCP support is ****. Support will actually yell at you. I've had questions with them and the support staff called me a fish lol. I pretty much told him i'll never deposit again than. They sent me an email giving me $25 for free asking where I have been. The $25 is still on my account as I haven't played on the site since.


Also the fact that so many regs are beast chasing it's harder to build a roll from scratch on there. I suppose if you just deposit $2,000 and start grinding NL50 that would be the way to go but more and more people i've talked to that switched to Bovada are happier with their decision.

I'm surprised that the OP made this thread just a week ago. Over the past couple of months, WPN has definitely closed the gap a bit with Bovada. As a few of you have pointed out - A lot of Bovada's player base is simply sports gamblers who are using the poker client. If they didn't already have a roll sitting on the site because of football season they wouldn't even be there.

That said, I believe WPN could garner much more traffic if they:

a) Provided a bigger, easier to attain deposit bonus. The way it is now, they can't possibly expect a micros player to grind out that bonus in a short period of time. The volume required is just ridiculous. Guys depositing $100 and grinding 5nl can't possibly reach their bonus.

b) Actually have incentives for new players to join the site and attempt to build a roll. Have a "Little Beast" designed specifically for micros players so they don't just pay extra rake for no reason. They actually stand to win something. This would definitely help things out.

c) Increase the rake back bonus to 36%. There are other sites providing this kind of rake back and, once again, if a player is looking to start a roll on that site after a small deposit, this is kind of necessary.

d) Advertise more. This one is a no brainer. There is a huge vacuum in the market right now filled with players who are desperately looking for a great US facing site. In my opinion, WPN is the best one available. Best software, best cash outs, decent traffic, and it's definitely an up and comer. If they simply put their label and their name out there in front of players more, advertising a huge deposit bonus, the traffic would instantly pick up. A lot of players I know who play on Bovada hate it over there and weren't even aware of WPN until I told them about it.

For someone depositing $2,500+ and building from there, things might be a bit better. The site clearly caters to mid+ stakes grinders at this point. That said, WPN needs to realize that their future lies in generating as many new deposits as possible right now and that would be easily attained by implementing some of the ideas in this thread.

True, we actually don't know how big the Bovada player pool is so we can't say for sure that it is crushing ACR.

To the poster 2 posts above who suggested a "mini beast" I think you need to figure out how the beast works. First of all no one pays extra rake towards the beast. The beast is part of the rake that is given back to the players. Second of all the micro grinders only contribute towards the beast if the pot I believe is over $1.20. For someone playing micros that doesn't happen to frequently therefore it is not like they are contributing that much for something they probably won't see a return on.

I am all for different ideas on how to increase traffic at WPN but anyone suggesting the beast needs to be changed is out of their mind. It is one of the best promos on any site.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

First of all, even at 2nl a lot of pots actally do reach $1.20 due to the wild nature of play at those stakes.

Secondly, the Beast as it is does nothing to bring in new or recreational players which is what WPN desperately needs. I too have advocated a change to the structure of the Beast that would reward low stakes players in order to enlarge the player pool. And I certainly don't consider myself out of my mind.

The Beast as it stands not only doesn't reward rec players, it actually takes money from them since they receive less in rakeback while having absolutely no chance of receiving a penny from the Beast pool. The low stake rec players are the only players on the network who were hurt by the changes to Beast since the bottom few stakes had previously been exempt from the Beast fee. That is not how it should be if WPN is to increase it's player pool.

the RNG?

First of all nobody has a zero chance of cashing in the beast. It is very simple, put in the required work to get enough points and you will be rewarded. How do you think the players at the top spot get there? They put in the effort. Secondly, if you think rec players should be rewarded where do you think those funds are going to come from? They will be taken out of the pockets of the high volume players. How is that fair? Nothing come free in this life and some people need to stop thinking they are entitled to greater rewards. If you want to be rewarded, you need to earn it.

Obviously that's only a half truth. Anyone CAN cash in the Beast if they have the bankroll and time and drive. The first two are big deals. If you want a sustainable poker economy, promotions NEED to be a part of creating that environment, rather than creating an environment that rewards mass multitabling. The people who hold up the economy are those depositing, not those of us who can either win or can breakeven and win by cashing in promos.

As of right now, nobody playing low/midstakes can hope to profit of the Beast unless they play a ton, and even then I doubt they can make much. I play 100-400 PLO and pay a few hundred in rake weekly, but I don't even min cash.


No, no, no, no, no.

As of right now, part of the rake is going towards a promo which rewards volume players. Dismantling and replacing that promo with something that can give recreational players a chance wouldn't be the same as taking it out of the volume players pockets, it just means that volume players can't break even and still win unless a new system allows recreational players cannot do the same.

As of right now, you ARE taking a portion of rake from players who will NEVER cash or profit from the Beast and giving it to people who make the games nitty/make recreational players less likely to win. Not to mention that players who don't cash are losing rakeback as a result of paying for the promo.


The current structure makes the cash games on WPN suck. Everyone knows it, and only people profiting off of the Beast defend it, or at least I've only seen that.



The argument here is whether volume players should be rewarded purely, and in a fashion which leaves nothing for everyone else, or there should be something in place to rewards net depositors/players who don't mass multitable. I'd argue that if you don't see the huge problem with rewarding just grinders you're being extremely shortsighted. Or more likely, trying to defend a flawed system you can profit off of.

Ya it does seem that ACR caters to grinders like pokerstars but doesnt attract a large population like pokerstars since there is nowhere near the same visibility to recreational players that Pokerstars had. I'd definitely rather see ACR making it a more pleasurable environment for the recreational player then keep on giving incentives for more grinding.

As far as IM concerned things like bad beat jack pots and the beast dont add anything to my bottom line but when it comes to attracting the fish and fun players the bad beat jackpot seems like a huge draw.



This beast thing seems like dog**** imo.....



Also they need to make the deposit bonus attainable, not some carrot on a stick. I deposited $100 on ACR to donk around in poker for the 1st time in years and the deposit bonus time frame was a joke. As far as pre black friday.... not even pre uigea type of promos, ACR is rather lacking and thats putting it kindly.

The rakeback works....

With that said I dig playing on ACR even tho IM loving as I havnt played poker since BF.

I would have responded to his quote directly but you pretty much sum it up here. I guess he hasn't played 2nl in a long time and the environment here has changed a lot during that time so...

But no, a $1.20 pot is not even a remotely large pot at 2nl. If 2 players 100bb deep go all in preflop, the pot is already at least $4.00. A lot of times there are players sitting at the table with $10+ in their stack. I've gotten into pots that were $15+ @ 2nl. 4nl and 5nl are obviously just even bigger, and in some cases the pots there are just as big as at 10nl. The thing is, as you said, that with so many preflop callers and such loose play post flop, there is a lot of both dead and live money in pots by the time the turn and river hit. There are other factors, too but...the point is that a $1.20 pot in 2nl is nothing.

For awhile I just accepted what was being said about the Asian player pool, but when I actually started to consider when Bovada has the most traffic I'm not buying it. The Asian countries playing on Bovada are on a 12 hour time difference so their peek and our peak are exact opposites. You're meaning to tell me these huge tournament guarantees are coming from recreational Asian players at 7 AM? The bulk of the traffic is coming from US and Canadian players.

You and I have gone back and forth about Bovada a few times now. I hope this doesn't turn into another marathon. The pokerscout numbers which is really what this thread is about are calculated on a 24 hour basis, not a 12 hour basis.

Of course the time difference does mean that there will be less Asians playing during our peak hours. But there will be Asians playing nevertheless since Bovada/Bodog operates on a 24 hour schedule unlike Merge for example, so games are always available. I don't know where you live but it's about 1am. where I live on the West Coast. So obviously we both play poker in the middle of the night. I don't see why you think Asians are any different.

When I played on PokerStars my normal hours ended around 5am because I wanted to play against fishier players. Over and over again you have said that US players are the fishiest players in the world. Are you admitting now that that isn't true? Are you saying that Asians don't stay up to play against the fish?

I'm saying that Asian recs(just like American recs) aren't playing during peak traffic because they are working or sleeping. I'm sure there are Asian pros playing at all hours of the day just like American pros do though. Cash games run much, much slower during what would be peak hours over in Asia so one would think that they just supplement the traffic and aren't the bulk of it, no?

I'm curious as to where you (besides it being posted in this forum over and over) came up with the logic that Bovadadogs traffic is so Asian heavy. If American's and Canadian's aren't the main source of traffic why is all the traffic during peak American and Canadian times? If I've missed some sort of player pool release from bovadadog about this please enlighten me because it seems pretty obvious Asian poker players aren't their main customers.

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just really interested in this topic and feel people are overestimating by a lot the effect of the Asian market on Bovadogs poker player pool without ever providing any sort of reasoning for it.

Without the Asian market there never would have been a rec player model. I'm not about to do cliffs on what has transpired over the last couple of years but it is Bodog itself who has stated that they expanded to the Asian Market because players in that market are comfortable with playing poker for fun rather than money.

I've stated over and over again in this thread and others that no one knows what proportion of players are playing from Bodog or Bovada. Because of deals struck with Asian enterprises Bodog has a sizeable player pool but I nor anyone else that I know of can say how large it is.

But where you and I strongly disagree is that I claim that it is the Asian players who are the inexperienced players and that it is the Asian players that have been drawing US players to the network. If the fishier players leave the network, I firmly believe that Bovada will be a difficult site for US regs to play on particularly because of the anonymous tables. Without the Asian market, I don't think that Bovada would be crushing anyone.

I believe that Bodog for the most part withdrew from markets where they would compete with PokerStars because despite all the Bodog hype, I seriously doubt that Bodog can compete in a market dominated by a non-rec player model network. Get rid of the Bodog player pool and I think that even WPN could give Bovada a run for its money.

Correct, they withdrew from markets where they couldn't compete (like Europe) but from everything I've always found they are only in a very small part of China and Vietnam. Maybe the poker side of the site is flooded w/ these Asians that like to play poker for fun, but wouldn't these fun loving Asian poker players be on the site from 5 PM- 12 Am (5 AM- 12 PM EST)? Have you played poker during the Asian prime time? The games are dead compared to the American/Canadian prime time.

Do you think these fun loving Asian players are staying up all night (because obv fun loving Asians don't need to work because of their poker skills) or do you think that just maybe it's actually American's/ Canadians making up the bulk of the traffic. Look at the schedule for MTTs and look at when the peak traffic times are, it's very obvious they are a very North American driven site.

As far as the anonymous thing not working without Asia that's just absurd. Many players like anonymous tables for various reasons. Bovadadog got it very right going anonymous as much as I hate to say it.

It's all about the recs. Why would recs want to play anywhere besides Bovada/bodog?

Even part of China is hardly a small market. You're asserting that Bodog is just a tiny part of their network. I find that really hard to believe. I'm also not sure whether or not their entire player base there is marketed under the Bodog name.

Not as many people there work a 9 to 5 job as you might think.

I've played during their peak hours and have never had a problem finding tables.

You may have developed a liking for the anonymous tables but from all the people I've talked to about Bovada/Bodog, I can assure you that you are in the very small minority.

It's not so much that I like them, but I can definitely see that they have a place in online poker (or something that accomplishes similar things). As a HU cash player the anonymous tables really help me get games when I otherwise wouldn't. It addresses a lot of the really big issues, but I still think most of them could be addressed without being anonymous.

I'm not doubting that Bodog88 is a huge part of their business, I just don't really see the evidence that it is a huge part of their poker business. Obviously it doesn't hurt though.....

No one has any way of ever knowing the player pool breakdown(which is another reason imo that Bovada went anonymous), but just from playing at different times of the day you can get a good gauge of what's going on. I just feel like if the Asian market was so huge for their poker business that the games wouldn't be dead (compared to American prime time) during American mornings.

Unless no one in Asia sleeps or works it seems pretty obv to me that a huge % of their poker traffic is American/Canadian. The North American market (USA specifically) is so large you don't have to capture a very large % to be as big as Bovadadog is.

As far as WPN goes, w/ Stars potentially pulling out of Canada sooner than later they better get their **** together so they can pick up the left overs. It's a natural choice for Stars players considering the VIP program is identical. Gaining that market could be huge for WPN and I think they realize that, hence the $1 Milly in December.

I really hope WPN can come in and take over because I MUCH rather play here than Merge or Bovada, but they just keep doing the same **** over and over.

I'm currently playing on merge and was thinking off moving to acr due to the payout options as I'm not really into waiting a month for check cashouts and he avy fees. I see winning traffic is way down. I originally left winning due to beast promotion. Now that changes have been made to it how is the rake here compared to merge and bovada. I usually like to spread my role over multiple sites but was thinking is it worth it with the traffic decline at acr to load up here or should I just load up on bovada and settle with holdem indicator. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

This network is a good one to add, but it's hard to get enough games depending on what you're playing. Checks take about as long as Merge, so that isn't any different. They do however offer other types of withdrawals and P2P transfers.

The rake here is lower than both Merge and Bovada and you also can get rakeback or a VIP program. With a few tweaks here and there this site would be the best thing going imo.