I decided to delete the threads in regards to the BOT situation.

First of all there is no need to open a new thread about the same things and just bombard the forum with it.

I understand this site is here to discuss issues but i am going to say @ Inyadome.. If you have not one constructive post to write i will asked for you to be banned. I dont see why you have to come here and troll every single persons comment if you dont agree or dont like it.

Someone said i am cocky or unprofessional. To be honest i am just a normal person who plays poker like you guys and im sorry you dont like that i write things you dont like or agree with.

I also will say that if there is a suspected name whilst they are playing you can PM me the name or contact security directly.

It is not easy fighting a losing battle and castlefrank, no i do not need to provide evidence on every single security case. There are 100's that have pm'd me issues or concerns and im sure they are very happy with how i resolve their issues.

I too found that warbot site, it may come in handy for us but i find it quite amusing how pretty much every site is listed as LOW security but we are the ones who are infested.
We are one of the only ones trying to do something about it but i guess it doesnt matter.
I also find it amusing how the 2 videos i saw, i didnt see ACR there once but yet again people fail to mention that.

IMHO i am very helpful to anyone that needs it, i am very active even though at times i do get frustrated with what i see. It is me only that tries to deal with every single serious issue posted.

Also no i am not NEE, if i were to create a personal account and post here i would probably get banned

Hello Winning_TD,

please check my bot thread, which is not just the next bot thread, but has actual proofs and data. If you stick around 2p2, you probably know the old botring and that the accounts were actually banned from the major sites.

link to the thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...e-wpn-1636789/

maybe you also have an idea why my emails were not responded by any of the 4 websites to which I wrote; all of them a part of WPN

Emails has nothing to do with me.. I will inform you that even before i saw your post earlier in regards to this security are already looking into it.

WinningTD is the nuts. Not sure how anyone could complain about his contribution to this forum or his work at ACR. I had an issue and it was resolved literally within hours.

I dont agree with everyone but RU18 .. i def agree with

Sorry to tell you that if you feel the network you work for has done a good job security wise then you are delusional. When a site deliberately lies to is customers about or tries to avoid certain topics ( to me the same thing) well you are part of the problem and not the solution. I have said it before and I will say it again, the reason you have so many people crying is wolf is because there is a lack of confidence with security and the job they do. If you wish to get into specific details about what events I am referring to feel free to ask, I have been dying to get some straight answers for along time.

i don't think people are personally against you, just the network, but who cares most of us still play some amount on it. i think the stream the ceo did awhile ago gave too many people hope something would change.

i mean there is the problem that anyone who googles poker bot can pay 100$ and have a bot on your site within an hour, and that we can all find forum posts about these bots and see the volume/graphs ect.. so you can't pretend there isn't a problem, you could argue it's not as big of a deal as ppl think but everyone is going to have their own opinion.

edit- to be fair these bots work on other sites too, it's just that your rake race obv attracts more than other nw + other networks aren't having their ceo stream about how he's going to crack down hard on it

What does upper management that controls security protocols have anything to do with winning TD? If the CEO of Walmart banned Visa transactions, would you blame a Walmart cashier? Ostracizing Winning TD for WPN business decisions is completely irrational.

The bots you need to worry about are not the ones people linked to earlier that are for sale between 40 and 100 bucks. Yes those sites show graphs and claim to be winning. Someone had linked a claim saying the bot took 2nd in a Sunday tourney. Problem is the claim was a photoshop - the amount they said they won wasn't even close to what 2nd pays in a tourney.

Think about it this way. If you create a bot that can earn $20 an hour you can run that bot yourself and make about 60 grand a year if you run it 60 hours a week. Are you really going to sell that for $40? Is that all it's worth? A black box product that prints money. To make 60k you would have to sell 1500 copies of the bot. And that would overwhelm the pools on all the sites making it no longer profitable plus would make it more likely to be detected.

So yes you can buy a bot for 40 bucks or 100 bucks and I have no doubt people do and use them for a while. I'm also confident that those bots are not advanced and are unlikely to be winning. You're going to sell something that makes 60k a year for $40? No.

The bots people should be concerned about are the ones that aren't for sale. The ones that actually do make a consistent profit and that the creator keeps for himself.

Is there a problem with bots? Absolutely. Is there a problem of winning bots? Not really or at least not to the extent that some here would like to believe.

Again, think about it. You create a way to print money. You're smart enough to do that, and you are going to sell it for next to nothing? What is far more likely is that people have created bots that can play a decent straightforward game and come close to breakeven. Throw in some photoshopped graphs and results along with 'testimonials' and you have a mass amounts of bots crushing the games - at least in the eyes of people who want to believe that.

Some bots do crush the games. Those are not for sale, at least publicly, and certainly not for the amounts on the other sites.

.

lol that to^^

He participates in making decisions wether or not accounts get closed or not therefore he is part of the security process and is open to just as much blame as the next person. Also, he comes in here and will not give a straight answer even if the question is non-account specific. For example, if the question was why were DoNs removed from the sng lobby the networks answer has been to direct traffic towards jackpots. Clearly this is false, the reason was because they couldn't get a grip on collusion. I mean would they remove the games with highest traffic, while some may make the switch it would just drive more to go play DoNs on another network. I don't know about you but I can't respect a company when it doesn't have enough respect for its customers to give them the truth.

Castle,

Im not sure where you get your info from. I dont have a say if an account is banned or not. I give my opinion yes but they wont listen to me.

There is a big difference in not speaking the truth and not commenting at all. I explained a long time ago that the DON's were just way more hassle than it was worth and we had planned to bring 50/50 format sngs. Now we have gone 1 better and invented a whole new game.

Not once have we ever said we wanted to direct more traffic to JPTS. We dont need to do that, they speak for themselves.

In the most respectful way possible to you, you are not always correct in what you think, however you do have some good points at times and i always read your posts. I dont comment to so many things because at times there is nothing good that can come from it. Even if i speak the truth which i always do, i get slaughtered.

I dont know how much other sites have an active rep or have a CEO that comes and speaks to its players. If that isnt respect for the customers im not sure what is, even if i do tilt at times, im only human

I have to say pretty well said. This will fail to get through to the doomsayers, but points out a legit flaw in this "warbot" (what a dumb name) idea. Not to mention selling $40 bots for games. Obv targeting the naive, like some of the "BOT!" posters here.

It makes no sense for a botter to out themselves. So lets say there is some false advertising in the "warbot" case.

It also doesn't make sense that bots would be playing such low limits. Almost every bot thread has zero HH's in it and rarely even a mention of what stakes they play. There's actually a thread where a guy (who barely plays poker) saying a "bot" was online 24/7 based on him checking sporadically (about every 5 hours it seemed from what he said, which again can't trust) throughout the day.

If there are any bots, and I don't play every single game every single day, I haven't seen them. So the must exclusively play PLO cash/SNG's, NLHE cash, or higher than $100 PLO/NLHE SNGs/MTTs. And given that most of these accused "bots" on WPN seem to range in the under $30 category, and called out without proof. This is why the bot claims on WPN are grossly exaggerated.

I would also like to know what qualifies you to know when you're playing a bot 100% without any conclusive evidence? What qualifies you inyadome? Castlefrank? Are you yourselves botters? Do you have knowledge of what it takes to bot? Were you screwed out of money by a known/found bot and were part of the process to out them? Do you know a botter IRL?

I've played millions of hands of poker. I never once felt I was playing a bot. I would like to know how you guys figure it all out after 100?

you missed my point, im not claiming these cheap bots are taking a lot of money away from players or the site, it's that its obv incredibly easy to make one work on the site

and the graphs im talking about arent the testimonials, go on a bot forum and check, they aren't even selling them, just bragging.

Listen I know you are just a person doing a job, but at some point you need to decide if what you are saying is worth defending the network at the expense of your own credibility.

For example, go back to the angry_nun thread, you clearly state that YOU decided not to give any refunds. While maybe you don't have a say in accounts being closed you do participate in security on some level.

Also, I am not going to dig it up but there was a comment by someone from WPN that the removal of DoNs was so that traffic would be directed towards DoNs.

Not commenting at all is exactly the same as not speaking the truth. To prove my point I will ask you this, was collusion in DoNs at least some part if not the whole the reason they were removed? It is a simple yes or no answer.

We get it, you're a curious little slugger, but you are delusional if you think that WPN should disclose detailed information about past or current investigations. Vague statements to the public are fine, but detailed information about what happened exactly with what accounts is not going to happen. If the people with malicious intent knew what WPN security was thinking or the amount of information they had, it would be pretty easy to optimize their criminal activity right?

If you would actually read my last post you would see I am not asking for any detailed info on any account. All I was asking is were the DoNs being removed have anything to do with not being able to deal with collusion. It is a very general and fair question, one that I have not received a simple yes or no answer. And because they choose to operate without a hint of transparency it is the reason there are so many cheating/bot threads.

I'm genuinely curious why that matters to you. Aren't DONs well-known for being extremely susceptible to collusion, and isn't that why many sites, including Stars 5 years ago, removed them? I don't play tourneys, so perhaps I have this wrong.

Count me as curious as well. How could the removal of DoN's not been because of concerns about collusion? I mean, if TD said yes that was sole reason, what does that change?

It has to do with being straight up and honest with people. Stars admitted they were dropping DoNs because they couldn't control collusion. WPNs position was/is that security on the network is doing a fine job and collusion was never the reason for removing DoNs. Why they choose to take this stance can is up for debate. Regardless, by not being honest with people it shows a lack of respect towards them. Personally if WPN had simply come out a said "hey everybody, we have an issue with collusion in DoNs so we are pulling them" I would be absolutely fine with that and respect them for being honest.

It means that for the past few years they have been trying to pull the wool over our eyes. It means that they didn't have the proper security measures to control collusion which begs the question what has changed at WPN since then to help improve security. It also means that if they wouldn't admit to a collusion yesterday why would they admit to a botting problem today. Hope that maybe explains my feelings better.

Well, they removed DONs.

It was always my understanding that DONs were removed because they are particularly hard to police and there were a lot of players asking for them to be removed (due to suspected collusion and the big disadvantage if you chose not to play them when going for SNC). Winning_TD's statement above is consistent with them being removed due to some combination of difficult-to-control collusion and large volume of player concerns. Maybe there was a comment out there somewhere about Jackpots (I do not recall it), but I wouldn't get hung up on using it in an attempt to trap the reps, thinking you'll change something for the positive.

If I remember correctly the response was it was to difficult to control the complaints of collusion, not the actual collusion itself which are two very different things. But hang on I am going to bump a thread which I started awhile ago which still hasn't been answered even though it is simply a question about a policy they have.

This is probably why you are overwhelmed. It may have been unintentional, or maybe you took the role yourself but WPN REP and CEO have all but left you to deal with most of the forum. You seem to be the only rep responding in most cases so you are going to take most of the heat unfortunately.
I don't agree with a lot of what CastleFrank is demanding but when CEO is on a public feed and makes a statement, even giving a timeframe, it can be expected that consumers get a little worked up if they are not seeing (or reading) about any progress.
If Castle asks about a pay jump because someone breaking TOS was removed from the structure I don't see why he cannot receive an answer. The policy is either - We have moved everyone up the scale one spot to compensate for unfair play, or - The funds earned by unfair practices have been confiscated. Obviously it was the latter and saying that would make players unhappy, but no response is not the way to handle the situation IMO.

This is spot on, but unfortunately there are too many people who would take the problem out on the cashier.

Not commenting is not the same. I don't agree with the total lack of response sometimes but when there are 10 different threads about the same concerns (all speculation and NO PROOF about those concerns) would you rather see the generic copy and paste response each time? Would a non-response or "Thank you for your concern. It will be forwarded to the correct department." tilt you more? I also think TD had every right to remove those (duplicate) threads.

And this will be EVERY business's security practice and what has been stated many times already.

That does explain your feelings better, that doesn't mean they will be providing the information you seek. Security practices will never be made public knowledge. It is not even provided to individuals inside the company who do not need it. This is what keeps these practices "secure".

I don't know how to put it more straightforward than this.
Every business cannot make every customer happy. If you are not happy with the way you were treated or maybe the policies of a business, you need to move on and stop interacting with the business. If you choose to continue using the business and what they have to offer, then you should not be upset about the way they handle their business.