As more games have been running at higher stakes on here, the situation is getting really bad. People join tables just to be able to sit out at them for the ~8 minutes, people join tables and instantly sit out to observe orbits before playing, people sit out immediately after a rec player busts (even when the player hasn't yet left the table).

ONE EXAMPLE:

...rec player joins and plays BB...

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 3 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): $1,537.75
BB: $1,945.00
BTN: $2,116.00 (VPIP: 31.09, PFR: 22.39, 3Bet Preflop: 10.77, Hands: 671)

Hero posts SB $10.00, BB posts BB $20.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $30.00) Hero has 8 K

BTN raises to $45.00, fold, BB calls $25.00

Flop: ($100.00, 2 players) 6 3 4
BB checks, BTN bets $38.15, BB calls $38.15

Turn: ($176.30, 2 players) J
BB checks, BTN bets $130.91, BB calls $130.91

River: ($438.12, 2 players) 2
BB checks, BTN bets $149.85, BB calls $149.85


DURING THIS HAND (OR THE NEXT ONE) TWO PLAYERS JOIN TO FILL THE TABLE AND THEY BOTH SIT OUT. They don't appear in my PT4 HHs because they weren't dealt into any hands.


...rec player plays his SB...

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 3 players

Hero (BTN): $1,527.75
SB: $1,581.09 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
BB: $2,488.16 (VPIP: 31.19, PFR: 22.51, 3Bet Preflop: 10.77, Hands: 672)


...reg joins and posts BB on rec player's btn...

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players

BB: $1,048.00 (VPIP: 22.80, PFR: 16.97, 3Bet Preflop: 3.35, Hands: 613)
Hero (CO): $1,482.75
BTN: $1,571.09 (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
SB: $2,543.16 (VPIP: 31.25, PFR: 22.60, 3Bet Preflop: 11.07, Hands: 674)

...rec player in CO...

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players

SB: $1,003.00 (VPIP: 22.92, PFR: 16.94, 3Bet Preflop: 3.33, Hands: 614)
Hero (BB): $1,482.75
CO: $1,623.84 (VPIP: 66.67, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
BTN: $2,533.16 (VPIP: 31.41, PFR: 22.80, 3Bet Preflop: 11.03, Hands: 677)


...rec player sits out his BB...

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 3 players

BTN: $2,000.00 (VPIP: 23.01, PFR: 16.89, 3Bet Preflop: 3.31, Hands: 616)
Hero (SB): $1,561.30
BB: $2,462.36 (VPIP: 31.72, PFR: 23.00, 3Bet Preflop: 10.98, Hands: 680)

...and now the reg who had joined to make it 4handed sits out his BB...

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 2 players

Hero (BB): $1,551.30
SB: $2,472.36 (VPIP: 31.72, PFR: 23.00, 3Bet Preflop: 10.98, Hands: 681)


Now there's 4 people sitting out on a 6 player table. Rec obviously leaves.

Even if you don't do anything about this you can at least do something about the guys that repeatedly join tables just to sit out at them. JustFoldBaby does this all day every day at 1k 6max.

It's pretty simple really... being able to table select is really bad for poker in it's current state. This needs to be solved by only being able to see stakes available, how many people/tables are running at each stake, and only being able to join tables through a random table/seat placement. If you leave a table early, you get a penalty of not being able to join another table for x amount of minutes. HUDs, player rewards, too many regs isn't the problem... it is the fact people only play when they can bumhunt.

all players sit out for full 8 minutes





justfoldbaby camping

On it

He has been warned

ralph confirmed HS shark

hehe ya sick brags itt, what r you gonna do?

thank you thank you, can you also warn this guy otb_moon? repeatedly spawning 1k tables today when I already had tables open, then when joined plays a couple hands and sits out for the 8 mins. I already had 2 1k tables open when he spawned these three. He previously had spawned like 5 before the software started autoclosing them.

actually those things are huge problems.
you have this idiotic glorified rake race which destroys the quality of the games.people paying into the beast when they have no chance of getting anything back for the benefit of mass multitablers is a terrible system.

I have in the past been a massive critic of The Beast - I think it is an absolutely horrendous promotion. You are taking the rake of people who have zero chance to ever cash in The Beast and subsidizing grinders - it's stupid. The day they get rid of it and use those promotion dollars on better ideas, I will rejoice.

However, your point about the things I pointed out being "huge issues" doesn't really hold much water. Can you prove that having a reg-filled site filled with grinders hurts traffic? Which established sites that have been switching to rec-focused have had more growth at the top levels than WPN, which almost exclusively caters to high-volume players?

These other sites such as Stars have done a masterful job laying the blame at the feet of grinders, and they've successfully stripped almost all the rewards from them while somehow convincing them it's good for the game. It's nonsensical.

Interesting discussion which I'd like to take part in, but it needs its own thread. Thanks.

[QUOTE=Chazley;52444092]I have in the past been a massive critic of The Beast - I think it is an absolutely horrendous promotion. You are taking the rake of people who have zero chance to ever cash in The Beast and subsidizing grinders - it's stupid. The day they get rid of it and use those promotion dollars on better ideas, I will rejoice.

We pay the money that goes to beast its not paid by the players!

The money is still being paid by everyone to contribute to pay for the top grinders, it's just done much more discreetly now. In the past it was 4% rake +1% (or something similar) goes to the beast, now it's just 5% raked straight up. The "we pay for The Beast" money still comes from all the rake. It is also important to point out I referred to it as promotion dollars for a reason... the money and prizes being poured into The Beast would see far better returns if everyone had a chance of winning rather than the top 5%, where the money will almost never get put back into the ecosystem since those players are the most likely to always be cashing out (obviously that's just my opinion). I've had numerous debates about The Beast in these forums before and it never changed anything though, so I'm reluctant to get into much more discussion than this. It is your site, you can do what you please with it.

Also, please check out my thread about the late night MTT schedule

You say its a straight up 5%

The rake that comes from a pot and goes to the house. The $$ comes straight out of that.

So its like we are giving the top grinders more money straight from our pocket. I mean it is a rake race so top grinders usually do get the majority

We agree with the semantics, my only problem is that you are running a promotion focused solely on high volume grinders when that money would be better served, in my opinion, spread out to give everyone a chance to get something back. I do think that having rewards programs that gives back large rakeback percentages to high volume players is great - it is the reason behind PokerStars' success (in the past), and I believe is the reason why WPN is the fastest growing site of the past ~2 years. At the same time, giving them 'rakeback' that they didn't personally contribute to and comes from the collective rake of the entire site I believe is bad business. But again, it's just my two cents.

It comes from rake.

Without rake race: My money goes into a pot. Rake goes to the house. Rakeback comes back to me.
With the rake race: My money goes into a pot. Rake goes to the house. Less rakeback comes to me.


This why they call me a pedantic nit?

^
What he said

+1 to not liking the beast. You guys need to cap cash tables at 6-8 and get rid of the beast. Maybe you'll lose some volume overall, but you'd be raking much bigger pots and players wouldn't be sitting at tables with the same 4 Eastern Europeans at every one of their 6 max table.

There is nothing wrong with catering to regs, as most on 2+2 benefit from that, but you're ruining your games for a bunch of rakeback grinders that just withdrawal their winnings. Most beast regs don't even take shots or move up with their winnings, they just keep grinding out that rake and removing $ from the pool.

^^^ Plus 1

Are you able to collect on 27% rb on the rake that goes towards the beast?

no

So wait... WPN rep claims it "comes from their pocket" but they're not paying rakeback/bonuses on a certain % of the rake taken because it goes to The Beast?

exactly

We dont pay rakeback on that beast fee no. I forget the amount you may lose in rb because of it but maxcut probably remembers.

I promise you one thing. Its way way less than you were losing before when players paid the beast drop.

Also if you do get a decent cash in the beast i guess the close to 60 - 80% rb isnt enough?

I don't know the exact numbers for cash games. For SNGs, it's ~7% (27% drops to 20.25%). That is more than made up for *if* you cash in SNC, which I assume is the same for The Beast. Great for about a hundred SNG players and a few hundred cash players.

[For the record, 35% rackeback earners drop ~9% to 26.25%]

that's the point. it's a terrible promotion for all but those at the very top and ruins the games.i'm sure the guys teathered to their computers all week (who i'm sure in some cases are sharing accounts) are quite happy with it.

as for the bolded- a terrible promotion that's less terrible than before doesn't make it good.but it's not less than i was losing before bc i simply didn't play on the site when it was even more terrible.