Ya that's what I've been playing recently. Such a fun game with crazy swings.

oh, lol didnt notice your name. we have played together a bit recently

Not shocked that this thread wound up 6 pages long already. I've read through most of it (quickly, I'll give it a more thorough look) and I see some interesting discussions in here.

Let me clarify a thing or two: I haven't been playing poker competitively like this for very long. I took probably 25k hands in the fall and then started playing again here around March 6th. I do not think I'm extremely talented at poker or that I "deserve" to win all the time or anything like that. I'm very realistic in that I think it's going to take a couple of years of working this hard and playing this much to plug up most of my beginner leaks. I'm more than fine with that. I'm looking forward to it.

The point of the thread was to put out a feeler and see if others felt that something was amiss while playing on WPN. I've received a few PM's with links to other forums where people have questioned the EXACT same things I am this spring. I'm sorry guys but ...there's just far too much smoke around this to brush it off as "he's a rigtard". I could see if I was the only one.

Not that this is the holy grail of anything but I am ALWAYS running multiple buyins below adjusted all in C on WPN. Since March 6th when I started playing I'm already multiple BI's below EV. There's swings and there's dips in your graph on other sites but not like WPN. You simply take 2 steps forward, three steps back, your graph continues to dip, and you continue to pay rake and move closer to eventually having to deposit again. That's what it feels like.

As for the 444 hand that so many want to critique: This is not a standard play of mine at all. I just got tired of seeing the same three players 3b everyone at the table and repeatedly see that they're doing so extremely light. I called a 3b IP, saw the flop, and hit my set. Anyone else would have stacked off there, too.

I looked at my session again: I stacked three people and was stacked once. I never lost another pot that was for even more than half a BI. Result of session: Down 3.5 BI's. I'm sorry...it just seems like no matter what you do, you lose money here.

I've seen numerous hand histories and players stats from 10NL Pokerstars. It doesn't resemble 5NL on WPN at all. There's 2-3 fish at every table on Stars and players rarely have a 3b of over 8%. On WPN, every table at 5NL is packed with 27/24/13 grinders who make the most unbelievable reads and calls on earth. Why would they be playing 5NL on WPN if they're that good? It just doesn't make any sense.

I appreciate those of you have contributed to an intelligent discussion here and I appreciate those of you have PM'd me with links to threads around the web where people are questioning the EXACT same things that I am. It's genuinely appreciated.

The sad fact is that I don't see how any player who STARTS playing online poker on WPN wouldn't want to just auto quit and never look at Poker again. There's no sane person who could keep putting in thousands of hands on there and just take beat, after beat, after beat and just keep being told "small sample size" and "don't be results oriented" and continue to put in the work. I'm doing so. I'm obviously not entirely sane because I keep logging onto the site because it challenges me so much. I'm going to continue to work hard at this game and play it in multiple venues but ...I already have a strong feeling that what's gone on here on WPN to me is just going to continue happening. I NEVER hit a heater on this network. EVER.

Not that this movie wasn't a total joke, but in the movie Runner Runner, the exact same concept is discussed: Massive deviations from normal, expected variance over large sample sizes.

http://www.pocketfives.com/f7/what-w...idence-702206/

Not a shock that the users in this thread are having these unbelievable deviations on WPN.

I also wanted to mention the bonus again: I don't see how anyone can argue that it's not entirely unfair that a micros player below 25NL simply couldn't clear the bonus.

I've played 10k hands or so under the bonus and I'm only at 50% APR for the first $5 to be released. Do the math. How on earth is someone supposed to play that amount of hands in 45 days?

I'm working on a bonus on BetOnline as well. I'm clearing it at a rate that seems acceptable and realistic and I'm only playing 6NL with touches on 10NL when I see a soft game open up. On WPN: There's absolutely no way to clear the bonus. None.

You have played 20k hands, dear god. Post your stats so we can see how unbelievable they are...

Perhaps you need to read the thread in the link I posted. Other have played 300k+ hands with the exact same unbelievable deviations and beats.

lol
It makes complete sense, you goofball. Stars has more players than any other site ever, so of course it's full of fish, especially since basically everyone that can play on there can just toss money on in 5 seconds and donk it off.

WPN's hard to get money on and there's a common misconception that poker's illegal in the US, so the average player on any US site is going to be better than Stars.

People have already pointed out to you that it's commonly known that WPN is a hard site to win on, you're not breaking new ground here.

I actually do play micros on WPN

people are making fun of you because you started a thread with the claim "blah blah blah i lost so many hands with x against y."

youve provided zero data and to help your argument you linked to a thread on p5 where a guy lost 26 flips in a row and the op said in that thread, "I have a dry erase board above my TV that I play on.... I marked it each time...I had 3 witnesses"

What's being attacked? You're not claiming it's rigged, after all. Sure do.
Stating you know his bank account isn't just "pointing out you've done business" and you know it, but you're a coward who doesn't like to admit what he actually says. Neato.
Of course that helps his argument, since part of it is "I had friends over and showed them my hands and they said it was BS".

Maybe try posting your PokerTracker **** instead of just saying "I can't believe I'm running so much under EV!"

I agree. Let's just try to stay on topic here and deal with real stats, #s, industry standards and such. It's for the good of the poker community that some want to make sure everything is on the up and up so we can confidently grind with a clear mind etc.

Absolutely. I think everyone can see the desperate attempt of a few of them to derail this and drag it away from the real issues. We already saw them spend a handful of hours arguing about the rake which was, by far, the least relevant point of this discussion.

We'll let it move forward with data, statistics, and evidence. Hopefully as the trolls continue to just post drivel in here, the moderators will catch up to it and do the fair, right thing for everyone. If they don't, obviously this thread can be copy/pasted to all of the other relevant poker forums around the web as further evidence that something is going on here.

OP from thread in other forum was a bit tilted for obv reasons. The tone improves on the 2nd and 3rd page.

The part about the white board was pretty funny I agree, can't really verify that one.

Even if what you claim is true, then everyone is being setup, so stop sucking and win.

By all means, start posting some.

all it will be posted into is the "poker is rigged debate" thread.

good luck with your endeavors.

Well honestly this thread can disappear entirely, they can delete the whole thing if they want. We don't know anything about what the site may or may not be doing at this point and shouldn't speak as though we do. So far there's a group of people that have some concerns and want to investigate it further and are trying to figure out how that is all.

Well, consider me a part of that group of people now. As said, even before I saw the scores of questions about this around the web, while I was playing, it just felt "off". When I went online and saw this much information about the same site, obviously I had to look into it a little further.

I just really consider it suspicious that all of this is going on, while the same two or three people try to derail the thread, while admitting that they play at the same tables as me on a site which is an advertising partner with 2+2.

That's not an accusation. I just think there's MORE than enough smoke here to look into it as deeply as some have decided to do.

1. Identify what irregularities you think there are
2. Test for those irregularities

That's literally all you have to do. You're welcome.

Just when I thought this thread was dying a slow, predictable death, you've resurrected it with this gem

#dryeraseboardpower

Coming soon, currently the question is how exactly to analyze them and what is a reasonable/acceptable sample size to make a determination one way or another, if there is one. If there isn't one mathematically which I don't think there is then what would the industry standard be? the standard 100k cash game hands, 10 milly? It's being worked out but any suggestions are welcome and I realize it's a touchy issue and there will be widely varying positions.

It's a little more complicated than that lol but thanks. There's also the fact of hands being mucked @ showdown and how that may or may not affect the EV #'s.

You need proly 500k to 1 million hands

Your thread is 100 posts long, it would be nice if you'd get to showing some data, statistics, and evidence.