There's literally no reason to play them. Nobody is making any money and the people who do, do so like 10 cents at a time. Between the rake and the fact that these are the nittiest, slowest, most boring cash games on earth, it would just take 20 years to build a bankroll here. When regs are around, nobody extracts any value. They just shuffle chips back and forth, pay the house, and eventually get up and leave. Every once in a while someone doubles up and immediately gets up and leaves.

If you play below 25NL - go elsewhere. This is the worst possible place to play micros cash games online or off.

Let's say you're at 5NL and winning @ 6bb/100. Do the math. You know how long it is before you have the roll for 10NL? Most likely never simply because when you throw in the negative variance, you're back to or below zero. The reg to fish ratio is just way, way too high here.

Don't like them? Don't play them. Simple really.


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No, it's actually not that simple. If the network offers virtually no way for smaller deposits to build a roll, and the only players profiting are higher stakes beast collectors, there's something wrong with said network. That's not how it's supposed to work and eventually things will dry up.

Even the networks that don't offer rake back are actually beatable. The amount of time one would need to invest to build a roll here is just absolutely insane considering the chances of busting or losing a significant amount of BI's when you move up. Throw in the fact that we have absolutely no way to win any portion of The Beast and we're basically just here to feed the jackpot. There shouldn't be as few winners at the micros stakes as there are. The only ones profiting from our play are the house and the Beast winners.

It's so much easier to point the finger and blame someone else than to look in the mirror and realize maybe the problem lies with yourself.

+1 well said


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?? That doesn't address the points I brought up in the least about the reg/fish ratio, the beast structure, and how nitty the games are here even at the lowest stakes. It's a long, boring, drawn out, process to build a roll here that requires the patience of a saint. I just think people should know that before they deposit small and expect to run it up. There are other places to play.

It wasn't well said at all.

The point is that you simply are not a winner. Get better and learn how to beat the game.

I play at wpn regularly at micros.
First of all let me say I HAVEn't been able to build up a roll, too BUT I beleive it's not wpn's issue.
About the beast and JP, I'm with you.. I don't agree thay everyone has to contribute to the pocket of one who is putting in musy volume. I simply can't play more than 2-3K hands a day! Neither are A LOT of other people.
But about Reg to Fish ratio, I don't agree.
It's at least 1:1 if not more fish than regs. Even if the regs ate more, what can WPN do? Can they ban regs?!?
They have sportbooks, first deposit bonuse up to $1k etc... Daily freerolls, free cash, JP poker a huge tournament schedule..
At the end of the day, even the best regs at micros are huge fish. Why?
If someone can be a good player and make money playing poker, why would he/she waste his time for a total double up of $5 or $10 ??
Why not move up?
I personally with more than 80K hands in 10NL am a huge fish there!
I have sample sizes of +30K hands on people who are huge fishes!
We all have leaks.
It's not 2010 anymore. You have to accept that games are tougher these days.
A meh reg at 10NL now, could be a solid winner at 100NL in 2010.
Is there softer sites? Yes of course.. But it's not WPN's fault that their games aren't as fishy as you would like.
If you want to beat the game, try to improve.
Complaining wont do you any good.
Trust me I don't mean any disrespect , but quite complaining and try to improve...

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I have logged a lot of hands in wpn and it's true it's almost impossible. When the table average vpip is 17 on almost all tables what win rate can you expect to have?

That's why I battle hunl. Cash me at the hunl tables how bout dat?

With that said OP you need to realize that a 6 bb win rate is enough to build a roll it's just excruciatingly long but that's always been poker. I don't know of anyone who has realized the "dream" on this site. A weak ass bich will never make it these days. You need to be tenacious as a mofo and decide you're going to make it no matter the cost.

Maybe try and make a roll in live poker. Deposit it and carefully make your way into mid stakes.

Nah, I went back and put in another session - this one profitable. I most certainly have leaks and quite a bit to work on in my game (no question) but the points still stand that very, very little on this network helps players build a roll and "come on up", the hard way. You're just punished for even trying.

I really don't understand why there can't be a specific bonus or race especially designed for micros players. The whole point of the game is to keep the fish at the tables and spilling money. As it is now, most of us playing here use HUD's, have addons for them, study charts, etc. The average rec has absolutely no prayer on here lol.

lol if you are complaining about 25 NL and below just wait until you play 50 NL and up. It is WAY HARDER.

If it wasn't hard everyone would do it. And to be quite blunt, the only rewards you are owed are the ones that you earn. So if you really want to build a roll quit complaining and start putting the time to get better. It is not going to just be handed to you.

I agree with every word of your post here and trust me: I love the game and I'm putting in a ton of work. I'm playing/studying full time. Leaving me out of the equation for a moment, what I have written in regards to adding incentives for micros players still stands. People have complained about it for years on here and the only thing added for us has been The Playpen and that's not really the same thing as what I'm talking about in my posts.

I like that there's a place I can come and get better at the game against superior competition for a bargain price. It makes lower stakes at other sites = auto profit. I just think they could throw 25NL and below the slightest bone at this point. There are enough low and micro stakes players on the site now that I think it would be worth it.

There's always the micro tournaments to build a roll. Did so on PS and Carbon. Gonna do the same here as soon as I can put $200 on here instead of min deposits.

Are you serious? You can easily win the $1,000 beast prize playing nothing but 25nl. You could probably even do the $2,500 too if you don't mind having 0 life for the week, as long as it wasn't one of those weeks where you need 35k+ points to win.

What if we don't have the bankroll for 25NL. Let's say we play 10NL. Then what?

Further, should it really require having "0 life" to profit on the network?

As for "are you serious?" - I and the others in the thread who agreed are serious. Yes.

why not play somewhere else? 27% or higher in rewards is actually pretty good compared to everyone else incl. pokerstars...

Are you a US player?

LOL that is ****ing ******ed. The finger to point is at the US government. I can walk 20 minutes to a casino and have many in driving range but I can't play online poker at a decent site. My state even has online poker but the entire thing is a total joke with 2004 era software and no traffic that WPN is actually a better option.

It's all cuz of this silly ass government that's run by a bunch of whored out politicians.

So what does the rake + jackpot charge at NL10 amount to on this network, in terms of bb/100? Anyone knows?

I'm wondering if it's literally unbeatable long term.

I was just thinking about the play that I've been seeing at 5nl recently as I havn't played in like a year. From the play I saw on these tables I think these guys would easily beat small stakes on stars pre 2011 and many probably have the same skillset is a midstakes grinder from that era. It's interesting to see the evolution of the game. Basically the same thing is going on in MMA right now, the evolution of fighting has geared up so much that dudes from 10 years ago in their prime would get eaten up by the current competition if they never evolved.


It seems like a horrific place to make money but these games will keep you brain sharp for sure.

Sharkhunter - im not here to troll but your posts look so familiar!!

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/21...87/?highlight=

Remind me of Greenbliss??

It's kind of insulting to the community when you respond to a thread such as this one like that. I'm sure if we look around, we can find several threads just like this one. I've seen them myself. I couldn't be creating every single one under a different user name. I could, I guess. But I'm not.

Now that your ridiculous sidestep and allegation is out of the way: Anything to actually add to the content in this thread? Because we have databases, we're playing day in and day out, and yet we can't find one record of a cash game player ever having moved up through the stakes on your site. Anyone who has is free to report such in this thread. Nobody will as it just doesn't happen. So, care to chime in and contribute something useful?

Look at the posts above your troll post. Every person is agreeing with the OP (me). Playing even 2NL and 5NL here is point blank just not profitable. There are too many regs, you don't pay enough rake back, and we have no shot at any progressive race or jackpot. You're using us to feed The Beast and nothing more. Any rebuttal?

Your assessment of the situation is 100% correct. It's an outstanding training ground but you simply CAN'T make any money and put a roll together. The micros here are - for all intents - broken.

I just played another cash session and it was horrible as it's reg time. All of us with similar stats, all of us just shuffling 30 cents back and 30 cents forth, and tons of rake/JP just pouring out of our bankrolls. It's 10bb/100 (approximately) just to pay the blinds. There's no way to make any money like that here.