These games have been around for a while. No one is posting about their beatability based on this thread alone; and obviously not on the basis of one player's graph. Not to mention that player isn't the only player who has said that he hasn't beat them and he wasn't even referenced by the post you quoted.


Take into consideration too that new games are always easier to beat than games that have been around for awhile. As players of all kinds get more familiar with games, the skill gulf narrows somewhat making the rake more difficult to beat.

As an extreme example, when DONs first came out on PokerStars, at the lower stakes, some players simply opened a lot of tables and let them run and made money by not playing a single hand. As time went on, that became impossible.

That's my point. They've been shown to be profitable.

Right! The point is that the gaps between the NL stakes are big, and if they're filled by PLO, it may prompt some people who haven't played PLO previously to get to know it just as an attempt to grow their BRs faster to the point where they could go back to NL at the next stake. This, in turn, may get them into PLO cash games (which are big rake generators too) if they stop liking JP games at some point, because the 4-card game is addictive.

Certainly not for most players. And, overall, certainly not as profitable as most other games. That they've been around only proves that they are profitable for the sites. Slot machines have been around for a while too.

My point is that they've been proved profitable in ROW lineups. In the (primarily) US setting, where there's not much advertising going on (though ACR does run TV ads) and the inflow of recs is not so strong, weak regs are gonna be pushed out completely (because of not winning enough to compensate for the increased variance), much like it may happen at Stars' 60s soon.

There's hope for Bovada recs switching over, but if Bovada adds its own JP games soon (I wonder why it hasn't done so yet, considering that these games have been around for 21 month already for the EU at Winamax plus available for almost the entire ROW for 15 months on iPoker), it may ring a death bell for WPN JPs.

I'm in complete agreement with you on that.

As far as Bovada goes, they might consider the Jackpot type games as being not in sync with their Recreational Player Model. One of the main objectives of the RPM is to get players to lose more slowly.

When it comes to Bovada players switching over, any player that had to choose one site over another would be giving up Zoom and a much larger player pool.

I'm pretty sure that casual players like jackpots more than Zone. (The former format is very fast too, plus it has much more gamble and opponents fold far less often.)

Also, if Bovada wants its players to lose slower, it can just redistribute the rake so that recreationals get a lot of it back via mission weeks, freerolls for JP players (giving them more JP tickets), consolation prizes for hitting seven 2x tourneys in a row, personal reload bonuses, etc.

There is a whole lot of hypocrisy involved in Bovada's Recreational Player Model. I'm just surmising as to why they might not want Jackpot games.

Well, Bodog's founder Calvin Ayre is known to be very positive about lottery SnGs (and the 'jackpot lifestyle' with a lot of partying in general).

It's revealed fast when searching for terms like 'Twister', 'Expresso' and 'Spin' at the gambling industry news website that he supervises. E.g. look at how passionately one of its writers condemned Masuronike's anti-Spin&Go campaign last October. The end of the article states directly that Negreanu's sentiments about Spins are in line with Bodog's RPM.

I have a hunch that some kind of jackpot tourneys is coming to Bovada at any time now; maybe it won't be 3-man (e.g. Bovada, with its traffic, can afford to run 9-man jackpots paying 4 and 2 BIs to the first two places at their bottom multiplier) or it won't include PLO, but something in this vein must be coming.

Shortly after, an article about Playtech's Q3 2014 revenue was published, which expresses delight with Winamax's loss of the copyright lawsuit against iPoker on the idea of Expresso/Twister. This might mean that Calvin had been concerned about patent issues that could stop him from bringing the format to Bovada.

I LOVE JP POKER!

Post the chip graph for the PLO ones, please (when you have a good sample).

Bodog is primarily a gambling site so Calvin Ayre's 'jackpot lifestyle' is perfectly in keeping with how he's made his money. But, thus far, he has never intermingled poker with casino games.

When I read the Calvin Ayre article last year, I saw it as Bodog's way of gleefully characterizing PokerStars as capitulating and moving toward Bodog's Recreational Player Model. There has been a persistent effort from Bodog to convince everyone that the entire poker industry is trying to adopt a model that Bodog invented; 'why even PokerStars is following in Bodog's footsteps'. I saw that article as their way of praising themselves (which they do ad nauseam) rather than announcing any intentions of adopting the games themselves. Bodog's Recreational Model is whatever they want it to be at the moment, so it can probably be correctly argued that they are for Jackpot games and against Jackpot games.

Of course Negreanu is going to praise the games after PokerStars adopted them; he works for PokerStars. On Negreanu's web site, I responded to a thread he started on the subject with a dare for Negreanu to actually play the Spin and Gos to prove that he could beat them. He didn't take me up on it. I think that if he didn't already have his fortune and was still trying to grind his way up, he would be singing a very different tune.

Negreanu's 2+2 post that the Calvin Ayre article was referring to was soundly denounced by the vast majority of players.

I don't think that a small US site like WPN can handle these types of games without damaging their core games. Furthermore, if Bodog were to adopt jackpot games they could advertise the games to bring in new players; PokerStars can also advertise them to bring in new players; but WPN can, for the most part, only hope to poach players from other US sites.

JPS are down.... as of now.... Per live support "No time frame on when they will be back up but some point today".... (Hoping they are fixing the per game multiplyer)

I think ill put in 1k-3k at the 2s and see what shakes out, but who knows. So much variance. Only played 140 logged prob 200 actual and up a bit. Bad variance on the bigger jps so far in terms of winning when it counts but getting more chances than I prob should. Obv thought they were easiest thing in the world at the start . Ill try to stick to the 2s for the data sample, but the 40s are too tempting.

Interesting to see how people are doing. They are a lot of fun on the side regardless. GL

Edit: background is no hypers no heads up and suck at poker

Can we make these real Hypers and start at Level 4 (25/50)? (10 big blinds)

If you want to spend less time per tourney, play PLO JPs, where stacks often go in 3-way at the first level, easy game

Crashed on me. I had 4 going, had been eliminated in two and was HU in two. Hopefully I get refunds for all 4 considering I won't get the proper amount for the ones I was HU in.

Site continues to be a cluster.

They have these sngs on Bovada where everyone is all in the first hand and whoever wins gets it all. Maybe you would be better off with those if you don't want any skill element at all?

I don't know what "real" hypers you are talking about. This is the same structure as hu hypers.

FT has some pretty awesome super turbos.

9 handed
300 chips
15/30
3 minute levels

Crushed the $3s & $7s pretty hard.


Too much skill involved in 25bb hypers

Binked another $5,000 from the $2 NLHE JP.

Those were/are called Hypers on FT and are exactly what I was talking about caftan. It is a push/fold game from the get go and YES it involves more than luck.

Jesus christ this thread....some say there is not enough of an edge. Some think 10bb is optimal and are deep enough for stacks to showcase skill. Others think 25bb play is too difficult.

The bottom line question is are they profitable for regs? Followed by do recs enjoy them?

I say yes to both. 45 chip ev seems conservative and achievable for anyone that actually attempts to adapt their 6max game to a 3max game.

Got to play a couple tonight for fun. Was a grind but got lucky and hit a 100x JP which we did a deal 60,60,80. Obv sustainable easy game. 12s still beating me up but won my last one. Played some matches with the guy that hit the 5k 1st tonight guess he is grinding them a bit. Well done bud

What software, if anything, are you guys using to track the PLO jps? OMngr doesn't seem to work.