Its really very simple. There is a company that's on these very forums, that appears to be working with well respected members of the poker community, that will audit WPN's player base for bots.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...?highlight=bot

They've apparently been hired by other sites and have shut down bot rings. All WPN needs to do is have their player base audited. They won't, of course, because it would likely result in greater than 10% of their base being shown to be players working in some Eastern Europe factory being payed an hourly wage to follow automated decision making software and clicking what action they're told to. I assume that's why WPN's bot detection is so lousy is that they're still using outdated methods like avg time per action and precision of mouse movements, etc. and not just getting directly into the nitty gritty analysis that there's a huge % of their player base all using the exact same strategy for every single situation.

Since WPN will likely never have an audit done, and since the above company said they are willing to work with players themselves, maybe we should come together as a concerned group. Pool databases and get in contact with Safe Poker and see what we can get done, then publish the results in NVG for all to see.

Hey! I am grinder at nl25-50 played about 1.5 mil hands at WPN . I can confirm that the problem exists. Now i give you screenshot with a bunch of current suspected accounts whom i ve played this morning. Even one pop up quick view tells much story about the issue. Humans wont do this. Take a look.


Also, i d like to leave here a message for Security department of WPN . Every time i wirte to your email- you ban majority of the accounts but similar ones appears after 4-5 days and without another report from players you like in 'dont see 'dont here'position. I would like you explain why u not auto ban fresh (same-same) suspected and susupicious accounts and your most loyal members should put this news to public to bring the light for whats heppening .

Update -nl 25 another 2 very similar opponents
I would ask to check them resonsible persons

What would account their fold to 3bet being so different? Everything else is so similar. Like crazy similar but the F3B stat...

uradoodooface, its positional hud they on a different positions

Hi guys,

I was linked to this thread by multiple people, so just wanted to jump in. I was one of the persons who helped Schwein (and PS) busting bots over the last two years mainly playing the great game of PLO. We found more than 20 accounts on PS. Massive credit to Schwein! (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...-them-1537778/).

I'm not familiar with NLHE and NLHE stats these days, and I do not have the time to do it, but I'll recommend that someone builds a simple data model using 25-30 different parameters and gathers a ton of data. Either from rPTR or across multiple HEM-DB's. The data model should include the basic stats like VPIP, PFR, 3b, 4b, fold to 3b, to the more exact ones like check/raise turn, check/raise flop as initial raiser, steal SB/CO/BTN, bet river checked to etc.
Compare the numbers and find out how many stats are aligned inside a 2-5% interval/pattern. In my experience the bots will have 85-90% of the stats within a 2% interval. Afterwards calculate the euclidean distance between stats from suspected accounts and compare regulars (and control groups). Visualize this in simple diagrams as people tend to understand it way better this way.
Happy hunting!

Grethe,

Thanks. AQB and others had posted lots of data in this thread and in post #61 I suggested they contact you. As you suggested above, the data and the math is the key. It is a plain and simple fact even though clowns like Winning_TD have been in here saying that similar stats don't mean anything.

Update

List of suspected accounts who is still keep playing despite reports to a poker room Security Department

Often playing
lablador1010
madMax101
LUCERtola38
MikiFinn
time to time:
bigant33
holdme7
GladiaThor
PersonaGrata2016
jackofAll11
wtfPlayer
cal911
Fresh accounts:
btwiwin
OMGGitsGael14

Also if this accounts has ability to share cards all humans at the tables with lot of confidence can run under EV
here is my graph All time at WPN

Posting to sub

the collision is out of control in the sattys aswell.

Without knowing if they have or havent investigated.

If they have reason to suspect there is collusion or bot or what not they will ban the accounts.

If they have investigated and they dont see any reason to close they will not.

Unfortunately this is to complicated a concept for the tin foil hat people in this thread to understand

Grethe gave the important response to this thread (post #131)...it is about data, math and presenting the info in a way people can understand. Don't just throw out names without providing data, any data about the player in question or weird play.

Winning_TD finally gives a troll free response in this thread, but chopsy2 steps up as thread clown adding to people thinking he is a bot owner or WPN troll.

As an example of data or weird play, here is a link to the PLO bot part of WPN featuring "weird play" discussion. Read last 10 or so posts. At least one of those names I don't see at the tables anymore (a bot found by players and banned by WPN). Bots do exist. Bots steal money directly from players at the tables. And bots steal money indirectly from players by finishing on the The Beast and Sit n Crush leader boards.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...89/index6.html

Before you start with me being a bot owner please think a minute about what you are doing. You are accusing me of being a cheat and a dishonest person with ZERO evidence to back that up and I take great offence to that and feel you owe me an apology. As for calling me a troll well that's another story.

Please take a minute and wonder why MULTIPLE people in this thread have questioned your posts. Logic asks why are you trolling/derailing an important thread, I simply listed two possibilities. Your posts in this thread are an embarrassment to you if you had any clue. The single most important thing about online poker is stopping cheats from hiding behind a computer stealing money players. Heck I'll even re-quote WPN from their web page, "game integrity is priority number one."

But haters gonna hate. Stupid gonna stupid.

Winning_TD for once made a real post worthy of this thread. I made a real post. Your post is sandwiched in between ours like a turd.

And if you and may others in this thread weren't so ignorant and would actually read what I have posted you would understand I am against cheating of any kind. But I am also against outing players names without any real evidence and that has been my stance through out this thread. But fools such as yourself just pick and choose what they want and come to the conclusion that I am a bot user or a shill for WPN so I just run with that.

And think about this for a second. I get called a bot user just for voicing my opinion by a few including yourself with zero evidence to that fact. How many other times have people's names been dragged through the mud by internet police jumping the gun? But I guess I should give most of you a pass since the country you are from is gripped in fear of everything and paranoia runs rampant through your streets. Basically you are just a product of your environment.

Two posts up you pretty much admit to being a troll. Stop trolling this important thread. You look like a light weight, save whatever dignity you have left and leave this serious thread. BBV is located under the General Poker tab.

Hard for me to accept this or any thread that has far to many people making accusations without any proof. Take out those posts and leave the ones that have actual evidence and we can start having a proper discussion on the topic. Btw I am still waiting for an apology from you.

Typical response from an ignorant person. Just admit it, you owe me an apology for calling me a bot user with NO evidence. You simply made that assumption because I expressed a different view than you. So since you are way off base with me that opens the door to the possibility that you are off base assuming others are bots. And remember what they say about assuming, it makes an ass-out-of-u

Chopsy's post is one of the top ones in this thread. People need to realize that just because they think it's true doesn't make it true. People need to stop throwing names in the mud with so little evidence. We are all on the side of stopping cheating but those are the realities.

Please stop derailing so much.

Edit: Cleaned up the last 2 posts from both parties, just becoming unnecessary spam bickering

The bots get banned? Prime time for the Eastern European's and barely any 6 max running between 50-200NL.

Those suspect East Euro accounts are missing from PLO too. Here are two quotes from ChicagoJoey in the PLO sub-forum. Any one that follows PLO (and maybe even poker) know him and his efforts to report on PLO for many years. His words carry a lot of weight, a hell of a lot more weight than the trolls and de-railers in this thread that are trying to say there isn't a WPN bot problem. Was there a policy change on some of these countries or did a lot of bots just get banned? And as Bongfellow and ChicagoJoey point out, these accounts accounted for a massive amount of the action on WPN.

But hey forget what people like Bongfellow noticed. And ChicagoJoey noticed. Let's instead let the trolls and de-railers F-up this serious thread.

Wolfbook, you have a serious problem of not understanding the point of what some are just trying to get across in this thread. Try reading and comprehending what is being said and maybe a productive discussion can be had.

Post #138


Oh yeah...I'm the one that suggested contacting Grethe and he was kind enough to give the blue print of how go about things. And your Post #136 was a serious waste of words turd sandwich (like most of your posts in this thread or any thread.) You really are so full of yourself you started a tin foil thread. Wow get over yourself.

Recently large number of accounts at both NLH and PLO were closed. The disappearance of these accounts created a noticeable dip in the amount of action on WPN. Bots make up a noticeable amount of the action on WPN. PERIOD. There are lots of everyday people that don't understand how serious or pervasive the problem is. Post #136 by you in this thread is one example of your troll/derails/worthlessness. It is an embarrassment.

you know who the people who derail this thread really are? they are the ones who are throwing out names of bots with zero proof. and those are the type of posts which I am against and that is it. i beg you to find any post where i said there isn't a bot problem but save your time because you wont find it. and to be honest the best protection against bots is to prevent them from playing in the first place yet i haven't read anything where someone has an idea how they can help doing that.

as to your point about those accounts being closed, first of all you don't know that for sure but then again maybe they were. regardless, if those accounts were closed it shows the system works right? it may be a slow, imperfect system but it does work. there could be a better way for sure but all i know is the more time WPN spends chasing false accusations the less time there is to deal with the actual problem.