Just to be clear:

I have no idea whether or not these players are bots. Figuring out whether they are or not is above and beyond me.

There's plenty of players out there who are smarter than me and can make much better assessments.

And in fairness, the pictures posted of players having nearly identical stats over a 100K sample is suspicious.

That said, when I look at the posted hands, I see bad aggro plays and sticky/bad calls. When I look at my database, I see more bad aggro plays and sticky/bad calls.

Perhaps I'm making a mistake by overestimating how good bots should be, but some of the hands are so far from optimal I lean towards them being of human error.

Why would a bot, especially one that's supposed to be a winner, do things like 5-bet bluff 100bb with KJo or call down 100bb with a low pocket pair in a 3-bet pot on a board with flush draws and face cards (in my database)? Or even in the posted hands, play low pocket pairs the way they did against medium to strong ranges with such little equity?

Personally, I contribute it to the standard "Russian style" of play. It's always been like that. Aggro and sticky.

So at this point I'm not convinced but remain open.

Hi.I have been playing at WPN about 1 year 25-100 limits.

It`s really obvious that number of bots increases in all rooms, which are not very protected. The WPN is so attractive to them because even if the player has no profit it brings rakeback and it`s not so small as we know.The curious thing is that these players are playing only one limit, especially those who play nl25 and nl50 and don`t take high places in the race. For example, if one man controls about 3 bots, they bring him about 4k of rakeback. So they don`t have to be too smart, cause it would be too obvious.

I regulary see these players and they have too common strategy. By the way, they didn`t ever reply me in chat and I have never seen tham active in the Beast tournament.

I think, the main idea of this theme is to pay attention on these player and a bot problem in common. If we are silent, nothing will change and the bot`s problem will kill poker too fast.

Knuckle Puck, dude looks like you defend bots.

maybee you one of bot operators ?

i think if you are not recreational player and playing a lot of hands vs some of listed guys, you must understand that they are bots.

VPiP PFR arg 3bet foldvc3bet
resteal steal-from-BU steal-from-SB foldvsSteal(SB BB BBvsSB
c-bet flop\turn\river 4bet
foldvs-c-bet flop\turn\river WSD% hands

In addition to the almost identical statistics there are other things that raise suspicion.
All of them have a little slow timings, there is never a instant decisions, but never go to sit out and don`t use the time Bank.

None of them plays the race on the 1K, most of the plays are only 1 limit , but the player nl25 and nl100-200 (this is a huge difference in the skill) have the same stats. Sometimes some players with the exact same stats disappear and the new one appears.

None of the Russian does not know any of these players, although many communicate on the forum, but among those who plays with such stats there is no active poster.
Imagine a small Russian town Supseh is town population 6K, where playing 3 people with nearly identical stats?
For example, in the two-million city - Minsk there are no players doing together so similar game and having so similar stats, and then immediately 3 of 3. The same can be said about the city of Orsk, where 5-6 people are playing the same way and this is too small town for such a coincidence.

If it is just a coincidence, it would be about 3-4-5 people, who play with the same stats,but it is real group about 30 people playing the same way and nobody knows themor at least one of them.

If you have reported this to WPN your work is done.

+1

/thread

I'm American. Definitely not running a Russian bot ring.

In all seriousness, I was playing devils advocate because no one else was. And like I said, the flaw in my thinking is that I probably overestimate how good a bot should or needs to be.

@salova's recent post makes much more sense now. "Imagine a small Russian town Supseh is town population 6K, where playing 3 people with nearly identical stats?" This is well written and gives perspective that lacked in the original post. I understand.

People use bots to put in volume that they can't or don't want to on their own. Imagine that you could play pretty solid poker and after rakeback make a steady profit of 7bb/100. Wow that's great. Now what if you could turn on a bot and make 3bb/100 but instead of spending time playing, you are spending time adjusting the bot's settings or creating more bots to multi-account? Now what if you can link the bot's to the same poker tracker database?

There has already been well documented proof of bot-rings on Pokerstars (the big dog) so bot rings on the lesser sites definitely makes sense.

But, to your point about how good a bot should be, this is the principle of what is going on. The bot doesn't have to be perfect or very good, it just has to score +1bb/100 after rakeback for it to be profitable and a threat to the poker community.

Why does Winning_TD ignore this topic?

Salova, nice visual is post #29 so that everyone can better understand the similarity in the stats that go a long way to showing these are bot accounts.

Below I have linked the PLO Pokerstars bot thread. The whole thread is interesting. But of particular interest are the graphs throughout thread used to prove without a doubt that the accounts were bots was the "distance between accounts pairs."

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...-them-1537778/

Several posters in that thread and others have come up with math based ways of proving account aren't just a random player. PM posters like Schwein and Grethe to have them look at your data.

On WPN with regards to PLO it almost feels like the games revolve around the bots. And let me explain what I me by that, I am not talking about the game revolving around the bot because they are bad, BUT revolving around the bots because the load up 4-9 tables. And when WPN bans a bot of two then an entire stake dies off in action. a while back PLO 200 would routinely have about 9 tables going (and still does sometimes), but after a few "regulars" who turned out to be bots were banned now PLO 200 does run that many tables for that many hours anymore. The timing of the banning of a few bots at PLO 200 and them the huge increase in new accounts at PLO 25 through PLO 100 and the increase number of tables running at those limits means the bots are playing smaller stakes to try and go un-detected, play with smaller bankrolls that can be confiscated, etc.

It is a disgusting feeling to at one point be happy that there are multiple games running at multiple stakes at PLO, but to then know that the bots are the table starters and multi-tablers producing the action. And I think this is one reason many poker sites passively let the bots play instead of bot hunt aggressively. But the poker sites are often too stupid to understand the bots are net withdrawaling a lot of money, enough money to affect their bottom line. The Pokerstars PLO bot won millions. Add in bots at NLH at both cash and tournaments and the amount reaches a lot higher.

Maybe poker sites wouldn't be constantly raising the rake if they didn't have bots net withdrawaling tens of millions of dollars !

@DaddyDuck I get the rational of using a bot. The point was, if someone is smart enough to build a bot, I expect, perhaps naively, they'd understand basic game theory better.

IMO, Salova's first post was confusing and hard to understand, mostly because English isn't his first language. It's also suspicious when multiple people with no post history pop-up accusing dozens of players of being bots, and right after the MTT bot thread popped up nonetheless. That's why I prodded further.

I regress though. Don't want to take attention away from anything or derail. Salova's last post is especially important and clarifies things . WPN will handle it.

Accounts that do not post their locations have been raising my suspicions recently as well. Still haven't done my search, but will later after my study/playing sessions.

WRONG !!!

This is some limited backwards ass thinking (but you get a pass because you did admit your naive view on this whole topic.) Most people don't build a bot...they buy a bot. And that is why most bots have similar stats, because it is the same bot that was purchased and used by several people. And to buy a bot takes no basic understanding of game theory.

Also WRONG

"WPN will handle it." Almost every large scale bot problem on any site has been found and busted by the poker players not by the poker site. The search button is your friend, do a 2+2 search of "chinese DON bot/collusion ring on PS", or any search of bots and you will see case after case where the poker players busted these ring not the poker site. And even in the Pokerstars PLO bot case, 7 out of the 10 biggest winners at those stakes were bots. Wow, and worth repeating, 7 out of the 10 top winners at those stakes were bots and "PS didn't handle it" until it was exposed by the poker players on 2+2. Many poker players contributed to fleshing out all of the bots. The damn poker players did all the heavy lifting, so stop with the "WPN will handle it" type comments.

I hope i have read these hand histories correct.

You suspect these players are bots but they are giving money away?

Please correct me if im wrong here

That is the best response from WPN? How about you not worry about whether it is a winning or losing bot and you start worrying about whether or not it is human playing. You are a slow pony if you don't already understand a bot can be a loser pre-rb/beast and a winner post-rb/beast. Also those were just a few hand histories posted, come on I feel sorry for WPN if you are too dense to understand any of this.

Why don't you jump to post #29, I'm eagerly awaiting your response to the probability of humans having nearly identical stats after tens of thousands of hands. The distance between player stats is one of the fastest bot catcher methods out there right now. My over/under is 50/50 that you will avoid post #29.

If you were a bit more polite, maybe he would listen to you. I would tell you to go f*** yourself.

here are the approximate results for the first half of 2017.
Perhaps it suits you, then I haven't questions.

WPN reps avoid bot threads like the plague. Politeness hasn't worked in the past. I'm calling a spade a spade when someone of Winning_Td position makes a dumb ass post. And my over/over of 50/50 on a WPN rep responding to post #29 is being generous on my part.

Get your prioties right little tiny Nicky, the f***ing is to the poker players, for example over $1.5 million dollars worth of f***ing to the PLO players in the PS PLO ring. It is 2017 and all of these poker sites are way behind the curve on their bot detection.

Oh and by the way little Nicky, most of my posts in this thread have used Pokerstars as an example. Pokerstars being the gold standard and still getting their ass handed to them by bots. So little Nicky I have NOT brow beat WPN in any of my post until Winning_TD made a dumb ass post. But little Nicky it went right over your head I directed all my post at PS.

I don't know when the screen shot was taken but I just looked at the current beast leaderboard and unless I missed them I didn't see those names in the top 100. So that might put a little doubt into your theory. Maybe do a little investigation yourself before coming off like a douche.

Human or not is the point. Chase your tail on any other topic if you like. Even a store bought chess or backgammon crushes players which wasn't the case years ago. A losing poker bot can become a winning crusher in no time in the internet age.

Again. Human or not is the point. Chase your tail on any other topic if you like.

My over/under is changing to 30/70 of a WPN rep responding to post #29.

And my point is that your reasoning of why bots are being used is for rb and the beast and so far you haven't provided any evidence of that. So why don't we try this out. Provide everyone with a list of ten accounts you think are bots with stats to show that fact and lets see how many are in the top 100 of the beast. If the bot problem is so rampant at least some of the names you will provide should be there right?

Wholly crap did you even read what I wrote? I said said something different of what you are typing (except to say Winning_TD made a dumb ass post.) I did not say bots are being used for RB. Bots are being used to cheat. Because cheaters gonna cheat. And the site needs to be played human versus human. Human versus chess bots is not working out so well for humans (even Grandmasters.) Human versus backgammon bots not working out so well for humans.

Human Pokerstars PLO 100 players versus bots didn't work out so well to the tune of bots winning over $1.5 million. Lets try this again...

Human or not is the point.

Post #29 of this thread shows multiple stats on players. You reach a point of tens of thousands of hands where if the difference between the stats is so small it gets to the point it isn't two different humans who amazingly have the same stats, but instead it is the same bot being used by one or more players.

My over/under on a WPN rep responding to post #29 is now 15/85.

#29 - Ignored you should of gone 80/20

I dont think you quite realise the job i do here. It started very professional but the ridiculous claims have led me become this person. I help the people that are rational and actually have good reason to complain about something.

You do know there are players out there that dont even know how to play poker but they know roughly what decisions are correct. Doesnt make them a bot.

However as much as i troll here i do also look into names and i do check them myself at times. I do also send on to security.

Also i am sure i have come up against bots on a number of times on numerous sites. Pretty sure taking money from them was easier than any good player. Just saying

You're far too nice replying to this clown, Winning_TD. I guess being a moderator wouldn't be for me. lol

here I made a screenshot.
Three different countries(Russia, Belarus, Lithuania), three different limit(nl25-50-100), but almost identical stats that coincide with those that I posted above. a little too much for just coincidence?