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Old 06-25-2017, 02:19 PM   #1
salova
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Bots nl50-200

I have a regular NL 25-200 player at your website for approximately three years. I am also popular blogger at one of the largest Russian poker forums and many famous players can vouch that I am a person.
Currently there are multiple web robots also known as bots at NL 25-50 limits and it does not seem like your security is taking any steps to solve this problem. About a year ago, your director publicly announced that all of the bots will be terminated however on the contrary the bots have grown in number since then. We are ready to assist you and provide information about suspicious players, but we need your feedback so we know our efforts are not idle.

Bots are stealing your money that could have been used for promotions to attract new players. Below is a screenshot with statistics of one of the bots

I spoke with several other players and we all separately noticed that there is a group of players that have almost similar statistics. Also these players have certain characteristics uncommon for humans.
We have some proof (screenshots, and other items that we prefer not to discuss in public), and also we put together a list of suspicious players that we suspect to be bots. This is not just my opinion. Few other players also suspect these players to be bots.
https://gyazo.com/2487d4dc5ca8d8a49fa38f4372e2fe39
https://gyazo.com/3ba88988ba08ffadc9f1754cb4d12b45

There are several coincidences that are difficult to explain. For instance, it’s highly unlikely that two players from the same city ] that registered one weak apart have identical statistics. Even if these statistics are identical because it’s a same person its still against the rules because multiple accounts are not allowed.

Another example is several players from small Russian towns with similar statistics that are playing only with certain group of players that others suspect of being bots as well. Please see screenshots below
https://gyazo.com/4e0a3039da240b01a013ba39a52e7c4c
https://gyazo.com/b483e198a1b01b9d38b0a5f824eb5a82


We can provide more screenshots as well as details of some other suspicious activities.
Currently these suspicious players joining 9Max tables, that they almost never played before, and waitlists. There are other details pointing that there is a single operator (a person pressing certain buttons) behind these players. Even if these players studied in the same poker school and learned from the same teacher they cannot have identical statistics that is attributable to a computer. Also all of these players have WWSF 52 which, in my opinion, is a sign of a bot.

There is a group of players who recently registered without providing their city of origin that likewise have identical statistics and their statistics is strangely identical to those players that are also suspected of being bots.

Below is a list of suspected bots:
Spoiler:


https://gyazo.com/a7e15bbf277d742e5e9c606d92cb2ce9
https://gyazo.com/01912d8a3c965bef1c35527ae5b002b3

The screenshots above were provided to me by another regular player who is also concerned by the increasing number of bots on your website.

Last edited by salova; 06-25-2017 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 06-25-2017, 05:44 PM   #2
chopsy2
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Re: Bots nl50-200

[mod edit]

Last edited by WPN_Rep2; 06-28-2017 at 04:39 PM. Reason: sorry chopsy but that comment is off topic and slightly political.
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Old 06-25-2017, 05:47 PM   #3
xBIGx
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by salova View Post
I have a regular NL 25-200 player at your website for approximately three years. I am also popular blogger at one of the largest Russian poker forums and many famous players can vouch that I am a person.
Currently there are multiple web robots also known as bots at NL 25-50 limits and it does not seem like your security is taking any steps to solve this problem. About a year ago, your director publicly announced that all of the bots will be terminated however on the contrary the bots have grown in number since then. We are ready to assist you and provide information about suspicious players, but we need your feedback so we know our efforts are not idle.

Bots are stealing your money that could have been used for promotions to attract new players. Below is a screenshot with statistics of one of the bots

I spoke with several other players and we all separately noticed that there is a group of players that have almost similar statistics. Also these players have certain characteristics uncommon for humans.
We have some proof (screenshots, and other items that we prefer not to discuss in public), and also we put together a list of suspicious players that we suspect to be bots. This is not just my opinion. Few other players also suspect these players to be bots.
https://gyazo.com/2487d4dc5ca8d8a49fa38f4372e2fe39
https://gyazo.com/3ba88988ba08ffadc9f1754cb4d12b45

There are several coincidences that are difficult to explain. For instance, it’s highly unlikely that two players from the same city ] that registered one weak apart have identical statistics. Even if these statistics are identical because it’s a same person its still against the rules because multiple accounts are not allowed.

Another example is several players from small Russian towns with similar statistics that are playing only with certain group of players that others suspect of being bots as well. Please see screenshots below
https://gyazo.com/4e0a3039da240b01a013ba39a52e7c4c
https://gyazo.com/b483e198a1b01b9d38b0a5f824eb5a82


We can provide more screenshots as well as details of some other suspicious activities.
Currently these suspicious players joining 9Max tables, that they almost never played before, and waitlists. There are other details pointing that there is a single operator (a person pressing certain buttons) behind these players. Even if these players studied in the same poker school and learned from the same teacher they cannot have identical statistics that is attributable to a computer. Also all of these players have WWSF 52 which, in my opinion, is a sign of a bot.

There is a group of players who recently registered without providing their city of origin that likewise have identical statistics and their statistics is strangely identical to those players that are also suspected of being bots.

Below is a list of suspected bots:
Spoiler:


https://gyazo.com/a7e15bbf277d742e5e9c606d92cb2ce9
https://gyazo.com/01912d8a3c965bef1c35527ae5b002b3

The screenshots above were provided to me by another regular player who is also concerned by the increasing number of bots on your website.
This could be cause they're playing on another skin. If we're on ACR you won't be able to see Betcoin player locations. Pretty much Betcoin skin is anonymous.
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Old 06-25-2017, 09:53 PM   #4
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Only problem is that nothing in your post proves that these players are bots. It's all circumstancial. Might be enough for WPN to take a look though.


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Old 06-25-2017, 11:28 PM   #5
blobbloblob
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Re: Bots nl50-200

I would definitely have WPN take a look into it. As stated before it could be coincidence.
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Old 06-26-2017, 08:26 AM   #6
salova
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Re: Bots nl50-200

and what do you want proof? the fact that 25 people playing with the same stats you do not mind?

I have a feeling that at least they use the prompter, for all time, none of them went to sit out during a hand, playing with everyone, and hands are doing actions which are not peculiar to the people.

Last edited by salova; 06-26-2017 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 06-26-2017, 10:58 AM   #7
nick619
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by salova View Post
and what do you want proof? the fact that 25 people playing with the same stats you do not mind?

I have a feeling that at least they use the prompter, for all time, none of them went to sit out during a hand, playing with everyone, and hands are doing actions which are not peculiar to the people.
It is insanely hard to prove that people are bots simply because they play in a similar style. That is what is called circumstantial evidence, but like I said it might be enough for WPN to take a look at their IP addresses and other things behind the scenes to come up with the proof.

There is absolutely no way you as a player can prove someone is using a bot. That's the stone cold truth.
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:37 AM   #8
salova
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Re: Bots nl50-200

do you even play these limits? Any reg will understand that it plays a bot. I believe that there are similar styles, but when 20-30 people almost identical stats, at large distances this is more than just a coincidence
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:43 AM   #9
nick619
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by salova View Post
do you even play these limits? Any reg will understand that it plays a bot. I believe that there are similar styles, but when 20-30 people almost identical stats, at large distances this is more than just a coincidence
No I do not play those limits. I play 25NL currently. Anyways, I agree that they are most likely bots, so don't get me wrong. I 100% agree with you. I'm just saying from an outside perspective, a lot more is required to prove that they are bots. WPN won't just go around banning people because their stats are similar to someone else.
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:42 PM   #10
GRGNT
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick619 View Post
No I do not play those limits. I play 25NL currently. Anyways, I agree that they are most likely bots, so don't get me wrong. I 100% agree with you. I'm just saying from an outside perspective, a lot more is required to prove that they are bots. WPN won't just go around banning people because their stats are similar to someone else.
Oh man, we are just players of this network.
Players dont want to play with bots.
What can we to do on this? Statistics is all that players have.
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:47 PM   #11
salova
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Re: Bots nl50-200

my English is not very good, because it's hard for me to explain why I and others I am sure that these players are bots, but I'll try.

A distinctive feature is the fact that regardless of the limit they play each hand to the end, where people simply give up. In the pop-up all of them wwsf 52-53 b high bet to a missed C-bet.
They are ready to play with any players , I haven't seen any of them in the course of the hand went to the sit out, all playing about 6 tables.

The fact that they fall into the coin says more about what operator is sitting there, because they are difficult to identify by conventional methods, but statistics shows that it's a bot.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:35 PM   #12
nick619
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRGNT View Post
Oh man, we are just players of this network.
Players dont want to play with bots.
What can we to do on this? Statistics is all that players have.
All you can do is report it to WPN and let them do their own investigating. A lot more goes into it than "player A plays the exact same way as player B" I'm sure.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:47 PM   #13
aqb
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Re: Bots nl50-200

I have a decent sample on some of these players at 25/50nl and can look into some of them when I have time.

Right off the bat, when I started keeping an eye on some of the names suggested in the sessions I can tell they did not have the exact same tendencies or frequencies other than they have similar VPIP/PFR/3b, all others can vary to some degree so my initial impression is that a good chunk of those are not bots, unless they have a way to tweak each one so different strategies are employed within each one.

Another problem with this is, I do not want to out stats of players publicly if they figure to be real.
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Old 06-26-2017, 10:57 PM   #14
salova
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Re: Bots nl50-200

what you need to pay attention?

I can call their nicknames under which they played, I never broke rules and want other also played. I played with MamacoolJ and many other well-known player
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:02 PM   #15
salova
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopsy2 View Post
It is kind of amusing to see a Russian accusing others of using computer systems to aid them in their own personal agenda.
I don't care who from what country, I just want everyone to play fair
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:21 PM   #16
chopsy2
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by salova View Post
what you need to pay attention?

I can call their nicknames under which they played, I never broke rules and want other also played. I played with MamacoolJ and many other well-known player
The problem with mentioning the players screen names is that you may be accusing some of them or even all of them of cheating when in fact they may not have. No matter how much you may investigate you can never be 100% certain someone is a bot. The best way to go about a situation like this is to report to WPN the names only and express your concerns and leave it with them.
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:24 PM   #17
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by salova View Post
I don't care who from what country, I just want everyone to play fair
[mod edit]

Last edited by WPN_Rep2; 06-28-2017 at 04:51 PM. Reason: off topic and political. assumptions without evidence, stop believing everything you see on the news.
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:35 PM   #18
salova
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Re: Bots nl50-200

i from BLR (Belarus)
my good friends Katya_18, fish_2013, other regulars will confirm that fair game. I am an outdoor person, I just want the bots to leave this website. I am willing to spend the time and make the work of the security services, this list is not just my opinion, but many players also believe that this bot.
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:45 AM   #19
chopsy2
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by salova View Post
i from BLR (Belarus)
my good friends Katya_18, fish_2013, other regulars will confirm that fair game. I am an outdoor person, I just want the bots to leave this website. I am willing to spend the time and make the work of the security services, this list is not just my opinion, but many players also believe that this bot.
Like you just said the list you compiled is only your opinion. Not really fair to be calling players bots when you don't have concrete evidence. I am sure that if someone came here and called you a bot or a cheat you would be offended. All I am saying is that maybe just keeping the names between you and the network might be the way to go.
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:49 AM   #20
salova
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Re: Bots nl50-200

I mostly played 3 million hands in this network, as I wrote it's not just my opinion , but other players. We communicate with each other, but never break the rules of the game. I am sure that this list is 90+ % dishonest players. if I'm wrong, I'm ready Pacinotti this room.
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:53 AM   #21
salova
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Re: Bots nl50-200

I'm not interested to communicate with people who do not understand what I write, but I'm sure in his words, ready money. I understand that bots are also improved, to plant operators to disguise their actions, but these nicknames are accurate. Network get banned of players with exactly the same stats, I don't believe in such coincidences.
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Old 06-27-2017, 08:04 AM   #22
winner111
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Hi guys, i am regular pokerking player, realy last several month the number of bots increase and became to be catastrofic.

Some hands:






I'm sure all these guys are bots.
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:46 AM   #23
Knuckle Puck
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Re: Bots nl50-200

@winner111

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

Here are some hands I have with one of the "bots" on the list (different player than yours). Both were played poorly by said "bot". The second hand is especially bad (A9d). It was a multi-way pot, he had almost no equity and no blockers.

@salova

I don't doubt your integrity or character. It's possible you're on to something and your net is just too wide. But if I can find a player on the list who probably isn't a bot, I have no choice but to doubt the claim.

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 33.95, PFR: 22.25, 3Bet Preflop: 9.29, Hands: 1,331)
BTN: 53.14 BB (VPIP: 34.34, PFR: 10.10, 3Bet Preflop: 2.70, Hands: 101)
Hero (SB): 60.9 BB
BB: 191.9 BB (VPIP: 35.61, PFR: 25.54, 3Bet Preflop: 8.81, Hands: 581)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K J

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, BB raises to 7.5 BB, Hero calls 5 BB

Flop: (15 BB, 2 players) 6 T 4
Hero checks, BB bets 5.5 BB, Hero raises to 12 BB, BB calls 6.5 BB

Turn: (39 BB, 2 players) 8
Hero bets 41.4 BB and is all-in, BB calls 41.4 BB

River: (121.8 BB, 2 players) 5

Hero shows K J (Flush, King High)
(Pre 29%, Flop 41%, Turn 84%)
BB shows A K (High Card, Ace)
(Pre 71%, Flop 59%, Turn 16%)
Hero wins 115.8 BB

0.48 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

----

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 69)
UTG: 102.24 BB (VPIP: 31.40, PFR: 25.58, 3Bet Preflop: 13.79, Hands: 88)
Hero (MP): 108.14 BB
CO: 134.42 BB (VPIP: 33.93, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 115)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 27.59, PFR: 24.14, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 29)
SB: 53.96 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 8 T

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (12 BB, 4 players) Q 3 8
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets 7.5 BB, SB calls 7.5 BB, fold, fold

Turn: (27 BB, 2 players) T
SB checks, CO bets 12.82 BB, SB calls 12.82 BB

River: (52.64 BB, 2 players) 3
SB checks, CO bets 111.1 BB and is all-in, SB calls 30.64 BB and is all-in

CO shows A 9 (One Pair, Threes)
(Pre 55%, Flop 14%, Turn 17%)
SB shows K Q (Two Pair, Queens and Threes)
(Pre 45%, Flop 86%, Turn 83%)
SB wins 108.24 BB

0.48 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:00 PM   #24
winner111
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Puck View Post
@winner111

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.
In my opinion MrCRABS333, Mumintroll, Achiles 100% machine play.

Some nicks from salova's list ofc. can be no bots, Just suspects.
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:09 PM   #25
winner111
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Any player who has enough experience can determine what the robot is playing against him and not the human, except for individual cases.

I would like to hear the opinion of other regulars about these nicknames.
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