From my experience even in MTTs in the long run theres very few winners at any stakes. Like the guy above mentioned, I don't believe buy in levels in MTTs whether you play 1$ MTTs, or the 109's matter. I truly believe if you can beat low stakes MTTs, you can beat the high stakes (but the catch here is that you can't afford to play the high stakes yet and your ROI will probably be lower, which means MORE variance). On pocket 5s, theres 3 winning players in the top 10 of my state. Lappy, MN_KVANG, and myself. Now another thing that comes into play is people think that just because someone plays high stakes they are better then you, and I totally disagree. I would destroy some high stakes players, and even have ran across a few in some mid stakes like scoopjackson9 and such. If you play everyday, you need bankroll management, thats like the best skill you can have as a poker player. Theres tons of players who might be able to profit long-term but there degenic side kicks in and they practice bad bankroll management, put that ego to the side guys. Reinvest your winnings and take a shot or 2 once in awhile, as well as just making +EV plays and the results will follow eventually.

To answer the cash game micros on WPN part, I played about 100k hands in 2 weeks and I won 200-300 with rakeback and the beast. To say the least, its tough, and on WPN, I would stick to MTTs only, that's the best way to make money. These are observations from a guy that plays on several sites and plays every day. Alot of these posts seem to be from people who haven't even played 25NL for more then 100k hands, thinking they know what it is like. If i had to give a range for winning long term on WPn at 25NL itd be between losing and no more then 3bb/100 for large samples. Poker is probably the game that has given me the most challenge to learn and deal with, and right behind that is women. Gl everyone

^^^ It's hard to completely trust tracking sites like p5's and sharkscope since they have nowhere near complete coverage for WPN. I've seen weeks long gaps in sharkscope coverage myself, and not just for WPN but for other sites in the past also. Also they have/had trouble properly tracking stuff like re-entries/rebuys/add-ons and some other formats.

Honestly the best place to start would be the smallest sngs and on-demands you can find. You'll always have the freeroll on-demands as a kind of safety net in case you go busto or just don't want to deposit right away...whatever reason it may be (much respect to WPN for running these btw). Sngs and on-demands will help your mtt game immensely, especially deep or at final tables where it counts the most. And the variance is lower because field sizes are much smaller. Yes the opponents are tougher on average, but you get to practice against them for cheap and hopefully learn a few things so that you're more prepared and confident when you run into these regs in a bigger mtt. You won't see too many top-tier regs in every $5 or $10 mtt, but you'd be surprised who you'll find in an sng or on-demand of the same buy-in amount.

Also the sit&crush is much easier to place in than the beast

Pretty much agree with everything said here. The players in a $5 or 10 OD are far better than those playing a $5-10 MTT entry. A $10 OD NLHE plays very very similar to a $100+ buyin MTT game. Most of the regs on the OD games, NLHE or PLO are all high/higher stakes players. You can get the experience of playing the more experienced or deeper bankroll players in those games.

The SnC is far easier to hit than the Beast in my opinion, too.

I would have gotten back to this post sooner but I had some thinking and self assessment to do over the past couple days. I also grabbed some much needed sleep.

Maybe I mentioned it but I'm only around poker a couple of years, on and off. I've been playing chess during that time too (quite a bit, actually) and have made far more improvement in chess than poker. I'm not a bad poker player and among everyday folks at home games and low stakes online, I run all over them. As you well know, however, there are a ton of good players online that I wouldn't run into offline and that makes moving up far more of a challenge.


I have, and continue to, suffer from tilt issues at poker. I would say that's my number 1 hurdle. That said, I have made a lot of progress on this. I've compared my poker losses (nothing in all reality) to some of the losses I've experienced in life. Some of the people I've lost. I've tried to put the game into proper perspective and see income as a beneficial side effect to playing good poker, not the goal in and of itself. Playing good poker and improving my game is what's important. The money will or will not follow.

Staying in games that I'm properly bankrolled for helps a lot since what you pointed out about today's players is entirely true, even at the micros: They love hero bluffs on the turn and riv. I've had to really work on my hand reading and that's partially why I was running those HUSNGs - to work on my hand reading on later streets. It definitely helped get me sharp for the tables again.

That said, no - I don't think the HUSNGs are going to be my ultimate means of profit. It's tough to get in volume, the odds are near 50/50 in many of the games, and the cost of the games offsets the winnings too much. I'll keep playing them now and then and see if I feel differently but I doubt I will in the long run.

As said, I do find improving at chess to be much more "for me" than poker. Then again, I do reach the point in chess - every single time I start a huge winning streak - of wondering what the point is. I'm 34 and just started playing chess a few years ago. The most I'll ever get out of chess is a) the ability to teach it for a few bucks an hour b) a huge ego boost c) a certificate one day. That's about it. As I said in another thread: At my age and after the things I've been through, I don't think I have enough pride and ego left to pursue chess to that extent. On the flip side, I might just be ready to finally start making some headway with poker. I need to make a commitment toward poker at this point so I've decided to craigslist/ebay what chess equipment I have and taking the profits to deposit onto sites. I'm also going to start scouring the area for underground and home games I can get into with poker. I'd like to play live a few nights a week.

I appreciate the time some of you have put into this thread. In the past, many have tried to pretend that WPN is just the same as everywhere else and if you can't just rack up the buyins at 2NL - 10NL you were hopeless. Of course, I knew that wasn't the case and it's nice to see some confirmation of this truly being a difficult network to profit on. I also play on BetOnline and Intertops as I can't play on Ignition (NY State). I live right on the border of NY/NJ/PA/CT though - right in between all four in the lower Hudson Valley. I might just bet an apartment and change of address at some point in the near future so I can play cash on Ignition since I know I can profit there.

Two questions:

1) How about "The Playpen"? $10 buyin, 60 minute tournament for micros players. Do you think I should start playing this when I can?

2) I don't see them up on the BCP website anymore but I remember just in the recent past that WPN had those Sit and Go's where you could win multiple times the buyin. Like, if you bought in for $3, there would be a random jackpot selected at the end of the tournament and you could win like $60 just from that $3. Maybe it was even called Jackpot poker. Does this still exist and would you consider this beneficial for me to invest in?

Thanks again

Greenbliss...

There is a dramatic difference between poker and chess. In chess, it is the ability to strategize and plan things out 4,5,6+ moves ahead. A strong chess player sees the board and layout far faster and more lucid than a beginning player does. Chess is like billiards or even golf. Poker has a variable none of those games have and that is when you plan things out, you are also flying somewhat blind. Unlike chess, you do not have the board fully exposed nor are you positive of your opponent's position. Chess could help teach patience, but it isn't going to fully conflate to poker play.

Tilt is something everyone suffers from now and then. It is the source of a new keyboard for me. Tilt can also be minimalized by now allowing your expectations of hand play to get in the way of the current reality. If you have A/A and are short stacked, your hopes shoot up that you will have breathing room and get inside the bubble or win a big cash pot. Except, three other players with far more chips are already in the pot by the time you go. There is 100% chance you are at worst case tied for the best hand, preflop. Once that flop hits, short of hitting quads, you are in a race at best. The key is to tepper your emotions. It takes 7 cards to complete a hand.

Tilt is nothing more than dramatic failure of pre-conceived expectations. It doesn't exist any place else or under any other format. You flop broadway, check, get a bet, a raise, you shove, and get two callers because 'pot odds dude'. You lose to a backdoor 9 high flush. Zingggggg, you are seeing red everywhere. You already were pulling in those chips in your mind. Unless you have the absolute nuts, you can only believe you are ahead and that can change down the board. That is why you see very experienced players keeping the pot small preflop. The drunk rich tourist may have called my $1,500 preflop raise with 3/5 and catch a wheel. That exact scenario has happened to me. I flopped a set and checked, he shoved for 6K, naturally I called and watched runner runner slap me senseless.

At a live cash game, if I see someone on tilt, there is a high probability I will try to send them off the deep end with anything remotely playable. Sun-Tzu said basically that if you lose your emotions you lose the battle. That is truth. Making a decision when your emotions are ahead of your logic is almost always a losing battle.

The art of patience does not come easy. I've been playing at a serious level for 20 years. I have had dramatic runs that were good and bad. The bad ones went on longer, at times, due to my losing control and forcing hands.

There are many ways you can practice patience, especially with a micro table. Make a list of 4 starting hands that you will play and muck every single other hand, regardless of how compelling they look. Make them hands that take a bit of effort to win with, like suited connectors, mid pockets, etc...aces or kings is not going to improve your game. You are not doing it to make any money, you are doing it to gain self control. It will get you in the habit of waiting for cards and not forcing hands that don't exist or the timing if position is poor. I had a friend next to me when I was playing a couple of weeks ago. I had gotten the hallowed aces in the hole and we were 5 away from the bubble, 36 paid and I was currently in 28 place. I was UTG +1 and folded them. He thought I was out of my mind. The thing is, the table was somewhat loose and two players at the top of the LB were behind me were part of that. I knew beyond a doubt that I was going to be in a multi player pot. Did I want to risk the safety of being in the cash at that point to being outside the bubble had I lost? It just did not feel right to me and I thought the downside risk being UTG+1 on that table called for a fold. Don't forget, avoid losing a big pot is almost as good as winning one. As it turned out, the big stack had A/6 and flopped two 6s so my gut feeling and logic prevailed. I finished in 4th overall, by the way. In a cash game, you play them obviously.

As I explained my logic to my friend, I said it was done out of being patient. If I was in a better position, like the button or blinds.....push em all into de pot. I thought it was best to wait, even if I min raised and a sloppy flop put me out, the blinds were two hands away, with no cards I become the bubble. His entire logic was based on 'its aces!', but they are not assurance of victory. I can tell you had I shoved and been called by A/6 off and lost, there is a decent chance I would have been off to Best Buy to get a new keyboard.

The Cage/Playpen has a different aspect to it in that you must play for a predetermined period of time. Again, patience and proper betting is the difference between success and failure there. Since it is only $10, it is worth a shot. Just go into it as a learning experiment and not that you are going to quadruple up. Take notes and watch how other players act. Check out the Cage match and you can see what I mean.

You can sit in the $5 OD games anytime during the day. They run endlessly. They are no easy walk in the park. You may end up with 22 players and 5 are paid; which means you 'only' have to be better than 80% of the entries. Even if you enter at the very last minute, it is likely that you are only a double up or so off the lead. They are not known for loose or sloppy play, as a whole. Those games are filled with regs and those regs are playing much higher buyins on MTTs. I'd say a third or more of the regs on the PLO OnDemand $7 or $15 games are playing in the Sunday afternoon 35K for $200. If you can cash in the $7 game you can cash in the $200 game, unless the $200 entry spooks you as it does most smaller bankroll players. You will get the experience though of playing quality poker and will learn far more than penny poker ring games. There are some of us that have posted in the thread that are regs in those games.

Too many people that post in forums are hung up on winning at one level prior to playing another. The only thing that matters is mechanics, confidence, and affordability. If you have the first two, then whatever your bankroll affords is where you play. It is not like playing Zelda or some nonsense where you have to beat the 'boss' to move up. Every level has the same cards. If you don't know the mechanics and play what you can afford, you will probably find yourself looking forward to a new reload bonus. Determine your level of play in ability and expense, nothing else matters. If you absolutely 'kill' micro ring games and then sit at medium stake or even high end of the low stakes....you will give it back. It is the mechanics that are faulty. I min raise with a big pair on a micro table and flop a set or something, there is a bunch of banter in the chat box from the guy felted from shoving with top pair. Usually warning me that it is stupid to not raise bigger. Except....I won. Stupid is raising bigger and getting called by a maniacal chasing fool. Play with and not into the strength.

Chances are, if you need a show of support from an online stranger about playing a type of game, you are short of confidence. Go with your personal gut feeling, nothing will be more accurate. If $10 doesn't hurt you, play the Playpen. The derived games with fancy addons are usually just bait to get people in over their head. We play an $10/20 overnight game at commerce that is PLO8 with side bets. Every pot 750+ and the side bets can be inane. It is just a way to extract more money from the players that are new to our table. They rarely come out ahead.

Good luck and for future reference, it may actually be better for you to post some hands and then others can specifically point out good or bad aspects of play. General discussion doesn't really offer too much in the way of assistance in your personal game.

Tilt was by far my biggest issue when starting the game. Almost 20 years later, some days, it still is an issue.

Agreed.

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."

Greenbliss,

Good starting point ^^^^. Any trunk monkey can and will shove AA and KK. Practicing with speculative hands is imperative to suring up your overall game, you need speculative hands in your armory as an available tool.

Yesterday AA cost me 3 buy-ins. I could have easily lost my composure and went on tilt... Ten years ago, I would have. I chalked it up to variance, maintained my composure and before I left that table, I had my 3 buy-ins back and I was in profit. Observe the players around you, adjust your play accordingly. As the old saying goes - never bluff a station.

Do you use skype? If so PM me your contact info.

a dewd

Great post.

Those on-demands are plo8, not plo. But yeah it definitely holds true that if you can hang with those guys for long enough then you'll be prepared for online mtts up to 10x the buy-in and live mtts up to like 100x lol. Oddly enough, usually the plo regs aren't the scariest ones and you can find some pretty big leaks if you look hard enough. Even some holdem regs are starting to play them because it's a nice boost to snc points and even a few of those are showing a decent profit. Thrash has streamed a few of them, it's pretty much like free coaching for anyone who wants to observe and learn. I can definitely recommend learning a side game or two because there are a lot of benefits to it.

Idk if I'm one of the regs at them that you mentioned, but I've played a few

Yup. I'm the one that a couple of weeks ago made the donkey call preflop on your re-raised pot bet that flopped K/4/4 when you flopped kings over and I had A/2/4/4 lol Idiotic calling that preflop to chase the low from the BB with almost nothing at risk, but sometimes dumb pays off and you scoop.

yeah that was a typo saying PLO instead of the PLO8. PLO would slash a quarter of time off the game I'd bet.

No question if you can break even + in those games you should be able to hold your own in most of the MTT games.

If you were short-stacked then I prolly deserved any beat I get lol, the short stacks are scary as hell in o8 since preflop equities run pretty close in it.

Sadly, I was pretty much at the 1500 chip level, it was the second level. -_- It was an incredibly stupid call that got lucky. I mean it is a 33 scoring on the hutchinson point system, but sheesh, plays like that on a regular basis will crush you over the long haul. Usually, I am very tight and often fold two pair on the flop if it is a multiplayer pot with very big draws out there.

I see players shove preflop with busted low runways from the ace and it boggles my mind. There is not even any assurance a low is paid, yet it happens all the time.

I agree with the preflop equity irrationalization. How many times do you see preflop pot bets get called with at best marginal hands? The ones that really leave me stunned are the snap callers on the low when it is broken and up from the deuce.

I also play the Primetime on Carbon, very similar to the $15 WPN afternoon PLO8 game

Ok, so I've been doing nothing but playing and studying while also eating/sleeping just enough as I know from the past that this is extremely +EV. To the point: Things are going very well.

I'm developing a nice little system here as a means of profit. I have three sites: Intertops, Blackchip, and BetOnline. BetOnline is basically the best for me right now because it's not WPN level difficult and it has very soft cash games + now they're letting you use the VIP points you compile from cash games as buyins to GTD tournaments. Cash + MTT's on this network is simply going to be pure profit for me in the long run. Intertops is fantastic but as I'm sure some of you know, it has one big problem: Traffic. The other thing is that the cash games jump from 4nl to 10nl so I'll have to build my roll quite a bit @ 4nl before making the jump. I'll get more 10nl experience on BetOnline first. Either way, I don't see having to deposit on either of these sites again unless something goes drastically wrong with BRM.

Then there's WPN. Thank you again to a dewd for all of your advice. Sure enough, the OD tournaments, which are basically MTTSNGs, have got to be the most profitable route to go as a micros player. Far, far more money to be made here than in 2nl and 5nl on the same network. These games + another deposit + 2nl as a training ground and we'll see how it goes = my approach to WPN right now.

Between all of this, I certainly have enough to get myself going. As a US player with a limited amount of starting money, you have to be extremely resourceful and proactive in finding a way to make consistent money today. No doubt, of course I'd like it to be like it was back in "The Day" before Black Friday. I'd love to just face roll 25nl+. Who wouldn't? That said, I simply was working on other things in life back then and missed the boat. There is something special about the game being relatively underground like this again, though. Most US players still don't even know they can play online. I also like how much more challenging it's gotten online. It's going to make me a far better player in the long run and really prepare me for live games around the area.

I'm using PT4, Flopzilla, Power Equilab, and the Card Catcher for BetOnline. The only thing I need to settle on now is the best video training site for someone at my level and ambitions. I know Grinderschool used to be great for micros players. How is it today? Are they keeping up with it? Of course, DragTheBar is free for all and owned by WPN now so I have that. I subbed to DeucesCracked for a while at one point last year so of course I know that and sites like RIO are an option, as well. Just curious what people in this thread have to say on the subject as the information in here has been solid gold thus far.

Thanks again.

I am in the far far minority here on this point, but, here it goes.....

If you learn poker via software, you are learning software, not poker. What happens when you play live? How about when your software malfunctions, freezes, etc... You are bypassing the basics and necessary steps needed to play at a serious level. Playing for a weekly awards prize, rakeback, etc... is a hit or miss and more miss than hit over the years. I have seen some names just disappear that were around for a long period of time. I have to believe they were software users because I saw them in a dozen games at a time, every single day.

I am not saying that the software is not useful or profitable, but you are sidestepping a tremendous amount of 'on the job' type experience. I never use it when I play. I'm a live player that started online poker about 12 years ago. I am very happy with my ROI and my total winnings. As an analogous example, how many people know the phone numbers to their closest friends and most important business contacts off the top of their head? They rely on their phones and computers. What happens when they don't have access to either?

Aside from learning the mechanics of the game, the best advice I could give someone is to learn to use your brain to play. That is if you intend to play for decades. Use the software to learn and understand your mistakes, analyze how you played a hand, as confirmation that your decision was right on a losing hand, etc... Don't get into the habit of utilizing it to make your game decisions. What happens if for some reason you lapse in your monthly usage fee or the new update is not allowing you to load it for some reason? No poker or fly by the seat of your pants poker?

Learn the mechanics, from top to bottom, and be able to recognize + or - values in your head. Know your implied odds at every step to make the most of your action and save chips in other aspects. Omaha is game that will crush new players that don't understand implied odds. NLHE allows you to get away with a lot more 'personal variance'/risks, so to speak. Omaha and the pure games will send you on your way quick.

The OnDemand games are the cheapest way to learn to play decent poker. I'd caution you to enter them with the expectation that they are easier to cash in than any other type of game. You can learn more from playing the $1+3 OD games all day long than you will playing with nickel blinds. Cash/ring games have no time-limit/frame, whereas MTT, SNG, etc... have timed levels. Different strategies to advance in either and there is no easy way to crossover from one to the other because of that.

Take notes and where you are successful and where you are not. Take notes on other players that you see in the money often and recognize the habits they have that get them there. Good luck and be patient in your play, the games, and anticipated success. If you are still playing in 20 years, you will be happy with your game overall.

Side note, if you want to grab a couple of hands that you questioned the play of and post, I'm sure there would be people, self included, that would be happy to discuss them.

PS. most of the US players are the on all the sites. No one site is tougher than the other. Flushes still beat straights, it is mostly psychologically that one is easier than the other. That is not to say that there are a handful of weak players that only play one site.

Make a list of 4 starting hands that you will play and muck every single other hand, regardless of how compelling they look. Make them hands that take a bit of effort to win with, like suited connectors, mid pockets, etc...aces or kings is not going to improve your game

THIS IS AWESOME, im gonna pratice this.

It is a good practice. Pick scenarios, like mid pairs from early position. If you are raising in early position, you are obviously very strong, right? So put out a full raise to rep J/J or A/Q higher. If you got callers, then the flop will confirm your big preflop show of strength with an A/K or Q type of scenario which gives you a standard CB to see where you stand OR you may catch a set, check, then three bet hoping opponents have over cards and catch the turn. Your winning pot can be substantial in that regards. The same goes for connectors. Just be prepared to fold out to any true aggression, like a shove.

In my eyes, that is why there is micro games. I work with one guy who has great aspirations in poker. He was playing a $100 game, raised preflop with A/K and got called by the small blind. The small blind was a well known on the high stakes game and my buddy was brand spanking new. Well, the flop was total crapola and my friend was in a mini panic over what to do. He didn't hit and was intimidated by a player that goes deep regularly. I said to him very simply...he doesn't know what you have, play it like the flop helped big or you have strong over pair. If you check, the small blind is going to pot size the turn and you will fold.

The micros give you that comfort and experience of aggression and countering it for a very small amount of money. The 5/10 or 10/25 ring games should be the place to go. The 1/2 penny nonsense is way too unrealistic. If $10 is an issue to risk, you should not be playing. A lot of the players that buy in for $25-50 are actually trying to build a bankroll for themselves. It is far more realistic for them to act in a normal fashion than the person wondering if they should call your 8 cent raise.

No question, a lot of what you speak (write) is gold. I got your PM and will respond but I just wanted to touch base here and post my direction/plans right now.

I think playing BetOnline cash games is the most profitable thing for me right now, while cherry picking an MTT a few times a week. The fact that cash games rack up VIP points and VIP points are used to buy into the most lucrative MTT's now, makes this possibly extremely lucrative in the long run. As mentioned earlier, I can continue to use WPN cash games as a training/assessment ground. It would be stupid to avoid playing in the toughest cash games online if I can afford it. Obviously the experience is worth much more than any losses I will incur.

I'll hit up Intertops when there's action but there just isn't enough of it to sustain volume throughout the week. Not in cash games or anything else. It's a shame, too because with the right volume this would easily be the network to play cash on. 36% rakeback, great US support, and the softest games I can find right now.

By in large I'm sure it's a better practice to put the large amount of your volume and study into either tournaments or cash. So, I'll be basically putting in 85% into cash and 15% into MTT's. A lot of these $2-6 reload/addon MTT's have enormous payouts if you do make the final table.

Once again, I do greatly appreciate everyone's input into this thread. It's gotten me back into the game, more focused than ever, and with a legitimate short and long term plan in mind. I feel good about things moving forward.

Just FYI: I'm playing 2NL on BCP, and 4NL on BetOnline and Intertops. On both BetOnline and Intertops, I'm basically just padding my roll before taking a shot @ 10NL which, to be dead honest, I only see as being more profitable on those networks. Forgetting BRM for a moment: I'm already doing well enough, as per this thread, to move up. I just don't want a less than 20-30 BI roll to influence my decision making and I think at this point it still would. I'm 2 tabling while focusing on moving up but I might throw in a 3rd table at some point tonight as the BetOnline 4NL games that run 24/7 are full ring.

levels, amount of tables, sites, etc... all distractions. Focus on mechanics and getting comfortable playing tough boards. Anyone can win a pot with the nuts, winning pots with meh type hands is where the skill comes in to play. If you play too many hands and the same type, you will get beat up a bit. That is why I mentioned picking different types of hands in different positions. You need to be able to win a hand with two overs on the board against your mid pair if you are going to win a sizeable MTT and make a living tossing cards.

It takes skill AND luck to win big. The luck you have no say in, but the skill is all you. You can plenty one game at a time. I play four at a time because it keeps me focused. Otherwise my mind drifts and I find myself looking at Imgur and porn between hands.

The goal is to convince your opponent that you have a different hand than what you are playing and get them to react to you in the way you want via call/fold. It is a far better option than to have to react to them.

I just purchased the monthly Essential plan over on RunItOnce as a supplement to my studies. I think this site will serve me the best right now and I really like their forums over there, too. Definitely a very cutting edge site and I remember when it first opened up I thought the same thing. I checked out GrinderSchool again but it really seems to be overpriced for the amount of content they're producing at this point. Technologically, the site is about 15 years old, too.

I'm winning everywhere but on WPN. Surprise, surprise. That said, I've only lost a few bucks there. On BetOnline, I have won 9 HUSNG's in a row and have a 58% ROI so I'm considering trying out the $2 regular and $2.40 turbo HUSNGs on BlackChip soon. We'll see how that goes. As for the cash games on WPN...I'd be dead break even if it wasn't for losing an 81% all in. Small sample size, though.

Intertops is the softest site. I'm winning @ 43.14 bb/100 in the 4NL cash games there. Close to taking a shot at 10NL on both Intertops and BetOnline.

sheeeit....idk man...someone winning and its definitely not me

Since you are using the holdemmanager, run the Leak Buster and find out what you are doing wrong or what is obvious to the rest of the players. 20K hands is not a huge study, to be honest, it is a week worth of play for some.

If you have not been playing too long, I would bet a couple of issues without seeing anything else.

~you are concerned with protecting your blinds
~you play far too many hands
~going to deep into the hand with having/hitting mid pair type of hands and over cards on board
~and the always tenuous....chasing nut flush/broadway

One thing that will definitely improve your stats is to primarily make calls post flop when there is more than one way to improve your hand. Really spend some time learning and understanding implied odds and how they apply to your position in the hand.

If you call a raise with your hole cards, 10/9 suited, make sure you are playing with strength and not into it post flop. If the flop comes out A/10/4 rainbow, best to be cautious when calling any CB or acting first here, especially if more than one other player in the hand. Sure, they may have crapola and try to rep the ace, but what if they do have it? Even worse, what if they have A/9 or A/10? To continue to play is very risky if you are reacting to them. You could try to re-raise their flop bet to gain more info and that is a far better option than simply calling; but what is your position if the turn delivers a 9? 'Chips' is the word you will be yelling.

Don't worry about hero calls, bluffing, etc... they will happen when you are feeling the cards and board clearly. I played hockey forever. After 20 years, coaches still bang fundamentals and the mechanics of the game into your head. Same goes for poker or any other strategy game. Be aware of where you are, but focus on where you are trying to get.

I hate to throw out the 'only' word, but if you are playing in the .10/.25 ring games, you are only down $500. That can swing to positive territory in a flash. There are tons of training software available online and vids on YouTube to get a better grasp of things. One thing that is well worth listening to is Esfandiari's commentary from the last two FT in the Main Event. Unlike the comedic Norman Chad and the rest of the vacuous on air staff, Esfandiari discusses the meaning and intent and hows and whys of different moves. He explains things in such a rudimentary fashion that anyone that has the basic understanding of the game and lingo can learn a lot from what he says.

It could be that your play is just too transparent to your opponents, that you are a victim of variance, a short bad run, or missing out on some of the basics. Hopefully, it is either the first or last so it is easier to fix. Bad runs and variance is like waking up with a frisky, hungry Rosie O'Donnell.

Rosie O'Donnell lol

I've been gradually putting more hands in on WPN over the past week. I've just been wetting my beak @ 2NL and getting a feel for the games.

They're definitely easier than they were 1-3 years ago on here. Much. You have legitimately 2NL players sitting at a lot of the tables and not 25NL+ players coming down to farm beast points. There are fish all over the place. That said, this is still - by far - the most difficult network to win on. I'm crushing 4NL on two other networks and am just about ready to move up to 10NL. Here @ 2NL, I'm playing about break even but it's over an irrelevantly small sample size. Still, it's been enough of one to get a ballpark idea of where things are at today.

The population increase and now 24/7 cash traffic has helped a lot. It's clear that fish from other networks have finally started swimming over this way and sitting down at the micros. Again though, you're still going to have good players at every table, the rake back is only 27%, and the table conditions change quickly. I'm thinking of the money in terms of big blinds and not money and just playing the game correctly, keeping my eyes off the bankroll during sessions, and collecting rake back.

Thanks for posting your graph. I'm sure that's what MOST people's graph looks like from WPN but they just aren't as bold and honest as you to show it. Once I get some more volume in, wherever I'm at, I'll post mine. I think it's best for most of us to just consider any break even or winning poker at all to be a success on here. Small steps, slowly increasing the roll, and using the experience here to keep improving. That's the big thing: Putting in the volume @ cash tables on here is probably t he best thing we can do for our overall progress and learning right now. So we lose some money - It's an investment. A class or a coach would cost money, too, of course. Volume with good players + hand history review and we're already profiting in the long run. BetOnline and Intertops are so much softer than this site it's startling and people just keep telling me that live cash is even looser. So, I'm not going into my WPN sessions expecting to win and feeling disappointed if I don't. A $6 pot here now means nothing when I'll be playing in $60 pots in live before I know it. This is the time to learn and make mistakes that don't cost hundreds and thousands of dollars.

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: $2.33 (VPIP: 17.24, PFR: 17.24, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 29)
UTG: $3.69 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
CO: $2.00 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 100.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
BTN: $4.33 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 100.00, 3Bet Preflop: 100.00, Hands: 1)
Hero (SB): $2.00

Hero posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has A A

fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.06, Hero raises to $0.26, fold, BTN calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.54, 2 players) 6 3 4
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.34, Hero raises to $1.74 and is all-in, BTN calls $1.40

Turn: ($4.02, 2 players) 9

River: ($4.02, 2 players) 7

BTN shows J J (One Pair, Jacks)
(Pre 20%, Flop 10%, Turn 5%)
Hero shows A A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 80%, Flop 90%, Turn 95%)
Hero wins $3.82
Rake paid $0.14

$0.06 was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.


They're doing this kind of stuff left and right @ 2NL, as would be expected. I couldn't believe this guy turned over Jacks and not KK. Again, I'm sure that has something to do with them being 2NL players and not three 50NL players sitting at the same table colluding together. That does make it a little bit easier

It's by no means soft on here and during reg hours it's very, very easy to just get eaten alive by the blinds/rake/sharks. It definitely isn't as much of a nightmare as it was once, though.

edit: I thought something was also supposed to have changed with the way the beast points were collected below 25NL, too? No? I'm still paying rake + beast. I have $1.99 in my "stack" after posting the sb and then I take that amount from the fish. 20 cents taken out after that between the rake and beast. Really? 10% @ 2NL? Seems a little steep. That's 10% more you have to take from the other players. Sure, I'm getting 27% rakeback but ...that's like a discount. It's already built into the original price, of course. I'm not really getting anything "back" that I haven't already earned. Fine, you're going to charge rake but ...do I really need to throw a few big blinds into "THE BEAST" when I'm playing for pennies and dollars? I'm never going to win anything from the jackpot I'm contributing to.

Question for you.....

what would you have done if you had 10/10, A/K or A/xxx?

Hyper aggressive play, but if you do not have aces, kings, even queens or a set there, do you call his shove?