and yet its still greatly +ev (using the actual definition) for them because they're playing with play chips while i have to use real money.

well i mean an official game is 30 hands. so whatever happens before 30 hands is just that.


if you cant accept that from a legal aspect then i rest my case.

why would i accept it? is there some law or legal precedent that you can actually cite that supports that? even if it were true, its still worth working to find a better solution instead of just offering an unfair game and saying nothing can be done about it.

Dude, it's the way it is. It's not going to change. Drop it.

Why do you let them dig out? Its pretty obvious the people that gamble their way out of the cushion. Shouldn't be terribly hard to get it in pre with them.

There is absolutely nothing legally special about 30 hands. It is just based on legal theory provided by some good law firms on how to meet the definition of a skill game and end up on the good side of the predominance test. To say that this site is legal in 28 states is also really just not true (it's also not clearly illegal). Ask any of the lawyers or people with experience with gaming law in the Legislation forum, as I am almost certain they would say the same. Remember that Pokerstars had legal opinions from some highly-respected U.S. firms that they were operating in the clear. That said, I find it admirable that Skillbet is willing to press the law on skill game grounds.

Suppose the opponent is down the max on hand 29 and is dealt 87s. Bot 1 opens, Bot 2 3bets, Bot 3 4bets. This is a clear get-it-in situation since the EV from playing this pot is much greater than the expectation of hand 30. Even with tight stackoff ranges (QQ+, AKs) it is hugely +EV over folding.

Move this pot to hand 30 and it's even more obvious that it's the correct play. If you begin walking it backward from the end of the match, it becomes less clear, but only if you are better than your opponent. A worse opponent is never going to give himself the best chance of climbing out of a hole against his opponent since he will be -EV every hand and should be taking huge risks in the cushion to freeroll and try to get even.

+1


the cushion has never been an issue for me. it didnt take me long to adapt.



its nice to see 2+2 has alot of highly insightful future lawyers though

Total number of players: 6
Seat 1: Player 1 (100)
Seat 3: Player 3 (100)
Seat 5: Player 5 (100)
Seat 7: ****** (100)
Seat 9: Player 9 (100)
Seat 10: Player 10 (100)
Player 5 posts small blind 1
****** posts big blind 2
Player 9 folds
Player 10 folds
Player 1 folds
Player 3 folds
Player 5 folds
Vying for pot #1 (3.0): ******
****** shows [Ah,Qh] Ace-High Flush
****** wins 3 from the Main pot

Low priority but just thought I'd point it out. Could be confusing later if people started importing into a db program.

if you look above the text hand history it will show what the board wouldve been.

just pointing that out for the people who havent noticed.

now you are just trolling. obv its possible for someone to adapt to the situation and at the same time still think that it needs improvement. so far the reasons given for why its ok for players to get free rolled are because football games don't end early and because that's just the way it is. i don't find those to be very valid points.

not trolling, just keeping it real.


obviously those were enlightening analogies and not meant to base an entire debate on.

im curious as to how the game can be improved though, while keeping a legit amount of length involved to ensure skill prevails.

no one ever said that the only solution would involve ending matches sooner. one alternative would be to increase the buyin/max loss so that the reward for losing is less relative to the stakes. i'm sure there are even better ideas that smarter people than me could come up with if more people acknowledged that the way it is now is flawed.

i also started keeping track yesterday of how many matches i get free rolled in vs. how many matches i get to free roll someone else. i didn't have time to play much, but i got free rolled 4 times and got to free roll 0 times. its not some insignificant thing relative to stakes when max wins are 150bb before rake.

basically doubling the buyins, but keeping the blinds the same?


i could see that working in regards to minimizing the times the cushion comes into play.

but it would also blow variance out the roof.



and the chances D_C_I gets to "freeroll" someone are slim to none imo.

its also worth nothing that when someone comes back from the cushion, even if you win that money back again, you get raked a second time (actually 3rd i think since they get raked and then you get raked again), so not only are you sitting there playing against a busto with no chance of winning, a lot of times you end up paying the house extra for the priveledge even if you still sweep.

prevent them from climbing out the cushion (money moving between players) and rake is no longer an issue

sorry, but that will still be a total bs argument nomatter how many times you repeat it. there is no way that you can deny people any chance of coming back unless the opponent's actions are 100% predictable.

also, if you would like to demonstrate this ability of locking people out, i'd be more than happy to play some matches where anything you win gets refunded to me, and and i keep anything that i win. how long do you think you could hold me at zero?

How do you do that when a player shoves 48 and gets caled by AK and rivers a 4 for a buy in? Are we supposed to shove the 48 also so they can't get out of cushion?


I understand where DCI is coming from and maybe we can expand another buy in.

It def sucks when you have them at cushion and they have nothing to lose shove and win, shove and lose while you get freerolled and can get raked.


I don't think I have seen any valid points for the cushion as of reading this as well.

they usually are predictable after becoming one with the game flow imo.

yea lets just remove the cushion. have no minimum hand requirement. produce a few hit and runners

let somebody lose their whole buyin on the first hand due to their opponent sucking out big time.

have the courts say that is luck not skill.

shut skillbet down.



i really fail to see the logic in the whole "cushion is freerolling" argument.

you can win a whole buyin in under 10 hands but that means nothing. the game is 30 hands minimum, fight to the end.

you are smarter than that.

"i really fail to see the logic in the whole "cushion is freerolling" argument."

Lets see. if you play a $150 buy in and have someone $5 in cushion on hand 30. What is their loss for shoving $50 all in preflop on that last hand? Absolutely nothing. What is there gain, they can get it in as an underdog, get lucky and now they will only be down 105. That my friend is the definition of a freeroll. Nothing to lose and everything to gain

like i already said, a better solution wouldn't neccessarily have to mean playing less hands. i never expected everyone to agree with me on this subject, but i also never expected to actually be arguing about what a free roll is or whether or not getting free rolled is -ev.

if you went through all matches played and took the average profit of players at the moment when their opponent goes into cushion and compare that to their average profit at the end of those matches, those two numbers will be very different and the second number will be smaller. that much is a fact. if i had to guess, i would say that the second number would be somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the first number.

i simply dont feel its freerolling because sitting down i know its 30 hands minimum so whatever happens during that i learn, adjust, grind and move on.


thats just how i look at it. i never felt the need to question the cushion and more than 1 lawyer's legal suggestion.

This isn't a feel or judgment call thing though. It is just the straight up textbook definition of freerolling. It would be different to just say you are ok with freerolling or getting freerolled, but not to say you don't consider freerolling to be freerolling.